My friend John Finkelde gives an appropriate response to this situation below:
Russell Evans, Planetshakers Church pastor, issued a statement last night about Michael Guglielmucci, renowned Australian pastor & song writer whose struggle with cancer has been widely chronicled. His song Healer is featured on the latest Hillsong DVD & CD.
Michael Guglielmucci has informed us that he does not suffer from cancer, was never diagnosed with cancer, and has never suffered from the disease. This admission has come as a great shock to everyone including his wife and family who had no knowledge of the matter.
This shocking news has left me dumbfounded.
Michael’s deception & betrayal will wreak havoc – unbelievers will mock the church, Christians in the workplace will face increased cynicism, pastors will be less trusted & the supernatural nature of the gospel will be openly questioned.
So why do pastors lie?
Same reason anyone lies – approval, pride, survival, prestige, ego.
The difference is that pastors are required to live impeccable (not perfect) lives so that Christ is honoured & people are shepherded securely.
This is an entirely appropriate demand. When leaders ignore it hell rejoices & breaks loose.
What to do?
First, it’s ok to be angry & disappointed.
Second, reject the easy option of projecting Michael’s failure onto all & sundry. It’s his sin, not mine … or yours.
Third, pray for … yourself, your friends, your church & the Guglielmucci family. And the Planetshakers & Edge churches – it’s going to be a tough Sunday in those churches this weekend.
Thanks John for a well balanced, loving and real response. Let’s do that.
My question is where is the discernment in the leadership of the church? This fraud is hanging out with some of the biggest leaders in Australasia and not one of them had an ounce of discernment to say that something was not right.
Now that is something to lose sleep over!!
Church leaders need accountability – individuals who know they are people and fallible like we all are. We all will hide our weakness until it exposes us. We must be able to come clean with in a way that takes away the power that comes from hidden things. I hope I am making some sense. Pastors are placed on pedestals and they shouldn’t be – people do this to them (or just allow it). The traditional church form of leadership is flawed in this way!
Thanks for listening!
Michael
I am astounded by this news! I was a part of the Southside Christian Church for many years under then leadership of Pr Danny Guglielmucci, Mike’s father. In Danny you find a man who is of the highest moral calibre. His mother, Sharron, is a caring woman who is also a true example of being a Christian. In the years that I saw Mike develop in his ministry nothing ever came across that he was any less a man like his father. So when I woke up this morning and read this news, I was shocked beyond words (mind you plenty are coming out for this). I am not sure what has caused Mike to do this, and I know that if it were my son who had done this I think that I would be more than just a bit peeved off that he had caused my world to crumble. But in saying this, Mike is a husband, a son, a brother, an uncle, a nephew and a cousin to an amazing family. Please give them time to deal with this without the witch hunt happpening. One thing remains true to me, while Mike has chosen to live this elaborate and hurtful hoax, I believe that his upbringing and family’s faith still remains. Danny and Sharron, my thoughts and prayers are with you at this time. Thank you for the ministry into my life, and yes, I did trust you to help me in the hard times and good times. Your christian faith is without reproach.
From
Trudy Peterson
I agree with what thescooterzoo had to say somewhat. My family were involved in a spiritual abusive church and we ended up having to leave as my mom had asked questions about something that she saw that was not right. The pastor there was worshiped and the pastor never seemed to be to worried that the people doing it either. I asked where is the accountability in that situation and my question was answer this year by a Mosaic Podcast by Erwin Mcmanus. He said ” a person only needs to be accountable for the things that they want to be accountable for.” Basically, if you don’t want somebody to find out, you won’t tell them. You alone choose how accountable you want to be to the system.
My comment is, this is something Michael needs to face. Todays actions are tomorrows consequences. We need to have grace in this situation. God rules and is in control. Let him be the judge.
LC
- Craig Wrote -
My question is where is the discernment in the leadership of the church? This fraud is hanging out with some of the biggest leaders in Australasia and not one of them had an ounce of discernment to say that something was not right.
—————
This worries me too. I had no idea Mike was faking his illness, but there were other things about Mike that worried me… It was like a cult of personality. Sometimes I’d hear other people talk about him like he was Jesus. I found some people seemed to violently defend him. There was this “culture” amongst some that scared me, and I knew it was from Mike as people would quote him.
The truth is Craig… I’ve since heard numerous stories of people who did think something was up… but no one listened to themselves, and those that did question, hit the “stone wall.”
There is a “stone wall” in our evangelical churches… it’s a cult of leadership. When the questions fly, the ranks close, and all too often the “troublemaker” gets pushed out. If you had publically questioned Mike’s Cancer before this had blown up… how do you think you would have gone?
All the same from what I’ve heard, the guy faked emails from doctors to his own family… It was a brilliant deception.
yes there are lots of worrying points to this situation BUT one thing remains-God is still God, that hasnt changed. God is still love, He saw all that was going on. Lets keep our eyes on Jesus for He is trustworthy and true.
So easy to point the finger. The guy is still sick only mentally. He needs our prayer not our condemnation.
God is so much bigger than any one man or situation. His church is everlasting and something like this does not change that in the slightest.
I am not concerned about the heat it will bring on the church. It’s not like the church is not mocked and criticized anyway.
Big surprise he failed. Check it out… he’s human. He just failed bigger than most of us that’s all.
Still love the song.. listening to it now.
We worship an amazing God, continue to trust and worship cause you will never work it out.
- Craig Wrote -
My question is where is the discernment in the leadership of the church? This fraud is hanging out with some of the biggest leaders in Australasia and not one of them had an ounce of discernment to say that something was not right.
___________
Good point Craig… we (myself) quite often get ridiculed for not being under a “covering” ie. ACC, Baptist etc (whatever that means) (in fact now that I have said that I probably have lost credibility), but it looks like this apparent required “covering” does not work anyhow… I’d rather be covered by God not man. I’d rather not have “Christian” super starts or hierarchy, we all fail, let’s leave the glory to God, he can’t fail. Let point people towards God and his goodness, not our own.
Enough of the “Church” being big business and “Super stars”, lets get off the rollercoaster we have all jumped on and remember people are people and God is GOD, and not make a “Christian” world in the name of God that’s bound to fail, and only bring shame rather than glory to God.
Maybe we should even stop calling ourselves “Christians” and just let our lives be Christ-like instead…. we (“Christians”) really need to take a look at ourselves (not excluding myself)
Interesting comments from “Michael Guglielmucci On Road To Recovery” on Blogspot. (Very intersting artical)
But I wonder if the real problem is not Mike and his deceit but the very system he became a victim of. A church that loves to make heroes and stars out of ordinary people…in fact does this not sound like the very worldy system that we live in?
Anyone remember God saying,” you do not need anyone as your king except me” and then we replied, “but we want to be like all the other nations – give us a king!”
“A church that loves to make heroes and stars out of ordinary people…in fact does this not sound like the very worldy system that we live in?”- This is what was said by someone!
BUT
The fact is this man all on his own, no one knew! He lied not only for 2 years but his life was one big lie! to the people he loved and the people who loved him. Enough is enough, why do we defend him! I understand everyone makes mistakes, but how can we look at this as a mistake! Look what is going to come of soo many people! Look at his poor family! Look and the poor Youth that he’s lead over the past years, espcially the Youth at Planet Shakers! The amount of money and time there kids have given up! Remember that people! The leaders that served under his “vision” for years! What about them! What about every word that was ever spoken upon their lives by him!
I don’t think people realise how many people in the world will be directly affected by this… If you all think that it’s all going to get better as days go by, you are sorely mistaken! If anything, as days go by, more information will leak out and more lies will come out and more will be affected!
What about the law! Fraud! Will he be put in jail? or are we always going to use the excuse of “mentally ill” to not put him away and demand he serve his time.
There needs to be Godly consequences, but also the consequences of the Law of this land…
I understand God’s grace and we need to forgive and forget, but when something like this happens it’s all so very hard…
As one who’s “served” his “vision” for years at Planet Shakers I don’t know how I will ever ler this go….
The points being made here are spot on. Mike is as much a product of the “system” as he is of his own deceptive heart. The current institutional christianity system in the West is so screwed up that one has to wonder how many other frauds are out there and will never be exposed. It is a crying shame that these “wolves” can hide out amonngst the flock so easily. WHere are the prophets? Who is speaking up? Who is listening? It is no surprise that the “high and mighty” who have rubbed shoulders with Mike over the last two years have not had a clue…and if they did, they were so bound by there own system and by fear to speak out or do anything about it. 20 years ago, Alun Davies from Dandenong Assembly of God had an Associate pastor sleeping around and a gay Worship pastor….both living in sin right under the nose of this respected “man of God”….where was the discernment then? Where is it now? Nowhere…they dont have any, the matrix has them. Peace out!
I’ve resisted making comment up till now. We can blame Mikes oversight and covering all we like and say “where is their discernment?” But the fact is he deceived even his wife. Someone that lived with him!! So how can we expect anyone else to have challenged it. Trust me, I know Mike very well, the truth is there were times that I doubted his story but when you look into his wifes eyes and see the burden she carried for him, those doubts are quickly disapated. I would think it, but then it would be replaced with “Nahh, thats proposterous. It has to be real.” I’m not saying we should bring out the linch mob on him, but it’s Mike that stuffed up here. Let’s get out of our self righteous ivory towers and stop looking for someone to blame here. Mike has a problem… I forgive him, but let’s face it, he chose this and deceived all of us including those closest to him.
I agree, pointing fingers as to why noone spotted this earlier is just useless.
Also, the question isn’t why he’d do such a thing – fascinating though it may be. That’s something MG has to deal with in his own heart before God. (Although one possible explanation is Munchausen Syndrome, a rare mental disorder where ppl fake illness for complex psychiatric reasons, including an abnormal desire for attention and sympathy. This is all on the web for those who can be bothered to research.)
The real question is how we choose to respond. As John F said, it’s ok to be angry and disappointed, but then we should stop and ask ourselves how Jesus would respond to MG if he was here, standing in front of him right now… and I don’t think he’d boot him in the butt. There have to be some serious reasons why someone would pull such an elaborate deception on those they love most. He’s already lost his credibility, ministry and so much more – the last thing he needs is judgment from ppl of whom God asks ‘love one another… by this all men will know that you are my discples.’
For non-believers, it’s a greater witness when Christians love and forgive those who fall, rather than join in the scorn of the world. And for the believers who fall and make mistakes, sometimes a little love is all it takes to set things right.
I have been reading all kinds of things about this situation. The standard rhetoric seems to be the main response, “just remeber Jesus is the one we follow, not mike”. I know that this is true. But, in my situtation i have been let down by my spiritual leaders in the past to point i was diagnosed with depression after enduring a traumatic exit from my church of 7 years. Also, i was struck fairly hard by the fall of Ted Haggard and there are others i could metion but wont.
My point is, i know Jesus is our example, but he was perfect. that is something we cannot attain. I looked to mike as a picture of faith that could be attained. He was living walking proof that faith can work, even in the toughest of trials. Now, i am left questioning again. Soemeone said to, “what about so and so. they are a good example too” I guess im a little scared to trust again.
My other fear, which has been brought up already, what happened to the prophetic gifting on this one. Mike was in the presence and was prayed for by some of the leadin prophetic voices in our country….but they said nothing. I had a prophet tell me i needed to watch less TV!!! My whole belief in the prophetic is seriously challenged. How come God is so concerned with how much TV i watch, yet lets a cancer fraud slip through for 2 years??
Hi guys and thanks for your responses here. There’s no doubt that this is a difficult situation for us to deal with especially those closest to Mike and his church too.
I agree with JIM. This does come down to one person’s fault and should be treated as such. For Mike to deceive even his own wife?! I’m baffled by that.
For us though this needs to be processed in a healthy way. God always has a plan and it’s His will for the people of God to grow and mature through this situation, not finger-point or blame the ’system’. There has been much fruit that has come from Edge Church and Planetshakers and there will be much fruit to come.
Personally though I want to reaffirm the point made in the beginning and add a little more.
1. It’s ok to be angry, frustrated, disappointed or hurt (or a combination). What you do with that however determines if you grow and you help others to grow with you. The choice to be life-giving even though you’re hurting brings maturity.
2. Accept that it’s MG’s problem. Each of us has issues. This isn’t a global phenomenon but sheer fact that people fail. Leaders fail sometimes, even the best of leaders. What we need to learn to do is respond the same way Jesus would… with love and grace (full meanings of the words, not just nice love and sweet grace but dealing properly with the issue in love).
3. Pray… heck we need to stop and pray for a bit.
Also… 4. Grow. We have a choice to move through this into maturity or to be stumped by this into recession. Our response shows our level of maturity. Let’s not kick each other down but carefully and lovingly encourage each other to maturity through this horrible situation. What’s God going to do through it?
Again, thanks for your comments. Keep posting and keeping it real and life-giving. Heck, that’s what this blog is all about. Cheers!
My heartbreak is for the people who will fall away from the Lord because of this. And numb made my point exactly.
I sat my kids down today because we were supposed to sing this song this weekend and had to delete it from our worship service so as not to distract people during worship, didn’t want them thinking about the scandal when they should be focused on worshiping God. So I sat our kids down today to talk with them and make sure they were okay and understood that God is still God, that is unchangeable! But that men fall short and make mistakes and bad choices. They get it because they are very grounded in their faith. But I also talked to them about the fact that we need to pray for those who will be shaken by this. Those like numb, who are afraid to trust again. I’ve been there, loved ones have been there. We still have two loved ones in our family who struggle with their relationship with the Lord because of past abuse of power by a pastor. My heart breaks for those who will stumble because of this and I think we need to focus on praying for them!
Of course he is only a man who is susceptible to failure and to making huge mistakes, but the repercussions are going to be huge for many who have followed him as they thought he was following Christ.
Numb, there is no way to tell whether or not God gave the prophets the message and they failed to deliver it. I know I am sometimes guilty of “editing” God. Being afraid to give a word that I feel He wants me to give because I don’t know if it’s valid or not, I don’t know how it will be received, etc… Perhaps God did give this prophetic word to people who were praying for him and they chose to keep silent. So, don’t let this shake your faith in God!! In the end, He did expose Mike and I am concerned for the fact that he will have to answer to God for this and I don’t think even he can understand the consequences and the scope of heartache he has left behind him. But I’m concerned for you. Get alone and sing some worship to God, read the word, pray. Do whatever you need to do to keep focused on God and let Him heal your heart and build your faith!
Lastly Numb, can I just say, don’t give up!!! I have been there. I was hurt terribly by an abusive pastor, but in time I learned that he was only a man and what he did had nothing to do with who God is! Continue to seek God and in time you will learn to trust again, but still keep your eyes focused on God. Man will let us down, I will let people down, you will let people down, it’s part of our human frailties, but God is always constant! He is still there, still on the throne, and still loving you! I’ll be praying for you, and for those like you!
Keeping it real? This is really, really simple. A man, a con artist, a huckster…fleeced the flock. thats about the crux of it…not mental illness or munchy disease or whatever, just a dude that played a dangerous game, thinking he could get away with it and has now messed up a lot of lives. That is a crime where I come from and he will be dealt with accordingly by the authorities. Leave that to them. His family and his friends should love him, forgive him and be there for him as he walks the long road of repentance and restoration. Thats a real as you can get. For the rest of us and for all the bleeding hearts on facebook…when you encounter people like Mike…run. Run as hard and as far away from them as you can get. If you stay, and if you continue to associate with these people you will suffer the consequences as many have. I hope that is real enough?
outstanding article
Darren, long time no speak (or see or type…)!! Your blog happens to be on the WordPress front page. fancy that!
These are the best lines:
“The difference is that pastors are required to live impeccable (not perfect) lives so that Christ is honoured & people are shepherded securely. This is an entirely appropriate demand.”
Very very true … finally I see the words “pastors are required to live impeccable … lives” and it’s not an excuse!
As well, I find it amusingly ironic that this type of thing happened in a charismatic church setting, the type that relish in the fact that they use the gifts. *cough* discernment *cough* What is it good for? As it turns out, absolutely nothing.
I should stick to the mainline churches … they may reject some of the teachings of Jesus, but at least they’re honest about it.
Why didn’t I put that in my own blog???
What we have to remember is that God’s giftings ARE IRREVOKABLE! Mike was living a lie, but it is very obvious that God still worked through him!
The Bible says that His gifts are never taken back. God used King Nebuchadnezzar to do His will, but N never followed God or worshipped Him.
The Spirit of God often uses non-Christians to get His message across. Why? Maybe because someone else didnt do the job they were called to do!
So before you judge anyone- make sure you ARE doing what YOU are called to do!
Stop criticizing and start praying for all the people who have been hurt by this!
I have worked in a number of different church systems and am currently working for two bible colleges but the AOG system takes the cake. More unaccountable AOG leaders. When will the AOG church system who does encourage unquestioning submission to leaders through its teaching, develop better systems of accountability for its leaders.
When we look at Jesus he kept the Pharisees accountable for their usuage of the people how they used the people and the church system for their own ends. Likewise Apostle Paul kept such leaders accountable – this is true biblical grace. Because after all the church is meant to glorify Jesus to the people – its not meant to be for the leaders and their gain.
More people in AOG church should ask for accountability in leadership and not continue to submit to false teaching on non biblical submission to leadership – not that we should have anarchy and do whatever we like as people, but cult like unquestioning of leadership is not true biblical leadership
I grew up with Mike at school. Nice enough guy. A little full of himself, but he was young. I was heavily involved in AOG at Paradise in those days. The culture there is pretty black and white. Cool kids, uncool kids. Kind of extention from school really. So Mike was one of the cool kids. He grew up in that environment, and I am unsure if he ever had to really earn his stripes.
My belief is he is the victim of the “system” too. But the system is bigger than most think. We have turned Christianity into a corporate enterprise. We have bells and whistles, the best music, jumping around the place. The system is based on emotion. You get into the music, you get into the praise. You feel God and the Holy Spirit. You feel everything, but it is only emotion. After a stressful week, how good is it to get that feeling amongst others who are doing the same thing? However, faith is not based on emotion. It is based on truth, honesty and humility.
I find it hard to say AOG and humility in the same sentence. Popular guys make it to the top. They bring in a new spiritual way, and everyone gets on board. The roof goes off and everyone is happy…..until it wears off. Too many people have left the Church without the true understanding of what Christianity is about.
Mike made a mistake. I am not angry with him, and I am not happy with him. I am disappointed that this has happened, but I think I have seen this sort of thing happening for years. Not necessarily in Mike, but the product the “system” produces.
All things happen with and for a reason. It is important as Christians, that even before we speak out on this issue, ensure firstly our focus and reasons are right. It is easy to accuse but it is hard to pray for that person. It is easy to be angry but hard to love.
Mike has taken a very difficult first step in confessing. Even as he has taken this first step back into accountability, lets keep praying for him that truly his walk with God would be restored.
I do not condone what he has done as it is outrightly wrong. However in these times, we recognise our human frailty and acknowledge our need for God. Lets not make the mistake of pointing fingers and failing to see our own wretchedness.
It is a tough time for the church, but God is sovereign. As His people, lets all return to prayer and intercession again.
I agree with Bev – the “corporate system” of the church creates these sernarious. Michael is also a victim of the system as well as the thousands who will be disallusioned – the system that raises the profile of man over Christ by puting “man” onto a pedestule. A true “grace” response will be for the AOG system to take responsibility for how it contributes to such behaviour, and how this could change for the better of Jesus’ kingdom.
Hey guys.
I know that this situation is shocking and that we are all hurt and dissappointed and angry that someone in such a high place of leadership and influence would do something like this. But the truth is, only God will know the real situation and untill the details have been cleared up, far be it from us to pass any judgement. I’m not saying what has been done is right by any means, but, we are the body of christ and as christians we need to protect the church with all that we have and by the way we speak. Why? The church is the hope of the world. When Jesus left, he commissioned us to go out and save the nations. By bad mouthing the church, we are creating a spirit of disunity.
As far as the above mentioned “system” is concerned… I agree that people shouldn’t be put on a pedastil, but at the same time, young people need a role model to look to. The bible speaks about imitating the faith of our leaders and considering their way of life. God knew all of this before it happened. Think about that. So if he let it happen….He must have a purpose for it. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. He works all things to the good of those who call on His Name. So lets stop blaming the ‘church’ for an individuals actions, lets come together as the body of Christ and lets get back to doing what God has called us to do.
Jared
How funny is it that I learned about this news less than 24 hours after buying the CD, taking pride about my friends about how the song “Healer” came to be, and seeing Pastor Mike’s image in the insert with the O2 prongs around his face.
Well it isn’t funny at all.
Bottom line of all of these is that our faith will not be shaken with a single sinful human act.
God will still be glorified.
Concerned, I prefer to be called Bov (not Bev) as I am from the Male variety
Jared I am trying to understand your quote “God knew all of this before it happened. Think about that. So if he let it happen….He must have a purpose for it.”. I think God lets everything happen. Good and Bad. I think God let’s us make our own decisions, and I personally don’t beleive in that kind of divine intervention. We are not puppets on a string, but let loose to find out way with the help of God. So I would be thinking more of how God will use this circumstance for good, rather than he controlled the situation for a later good….I hope that makes sense….:)
One can only hope that this has positive results. Unfortunately for Mike he will have some unwanted fame. I think also it is at our lowest times that we really understand what it is all about.
Anyway, I would I hate to turn this into a Gossip fest too. Gossip is right up there with Murder in Gods eyes
I don’t have time to reply to you all, thanks for commenting though and wrestling with how to bring a balanced, life giving response to this tragedy. But I will say this:
@Jared – Thankyou. What a great response bringing us back to what we should be focused on. I love your response to the ’system’ debate as well. I concur. Great work!
@sanchez – I hope you’re right. Some people’s faith in God (and unfortunately the church) will be shaken but we hope and pray that the opposite happens.
@xnowimcoolx – thanks for your comments mate. It’s been a while. I find it interesting that the gifts debate has come up too. However a proper look at the Spirit gifts shows that they’re only in operation when the Holy Spirit is manifest. So the question then is, why did the Spirit (God) not bring it up earlier? God has a plan and we might not be privy to that plan but we trust that His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. Thank goodness they are.
@Clarence – thanks for your thoughts, they are valued!
I can’t stop thinking about how Jesus responded to the adulterous woman who was about to be stoned by the church! His response was of love and grace but also direction and purpose. She was forgiven and told to sin no longer. His response to the Pharisees? “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” – John 8:7
Here is a couple of things I believe (for what its worth)
God Rules.
Healer is still a great song.
The truth never changes it is just discovered.
You need to follow God not man!
This may be a test for you. How do you think you will go?
Was writing my last when Bov posted.
@Bov – thanks for your post. You bring some excellent clarification here. I agree that God will use this for good. Cheers!
Just focus to Jesus.. not to person..
i agree with Tim..
Healer still have power to heal…
just focus to Jesus…
-Bless u all-
Guys, let’s quit with the gossip.
Thanks
I’m shocked to see everyone wanting to excuse MG for what he has done. Have you thought about the new Christians, the broken who put their trust in MG, the terminally sick who watched his so called miracle healings, what about the kids, what about the multitudes effected by this calculated act of deceit, what about people and their souls? Come on, think about that!
So now Mick will pleed the ” im not well in the head act” No, he’s well, he’s a very intelligent man, he knows what he was doing. What he needs is an academy award for best actor! Preacher…nar, MG should have been an actor, WOW what an actor he would have been! Thing is, he thought he could get away with it, but God pulled the plug on his show and so he had to confess!
And the thing about his family not knowing? not even his wife? Hmmm, doesn’t sit right with me. I remember Sharron (MG mum) going to Sydney to look after Mike will he was recovering from treatment, or was it just that he OD and had a hard night on the drugs? Hmmm, makes you wonder huh!
Yeah, i’m angry, i’m disappointed, but i’m not surprised. I’ve been a member of Edge church for years, i know the politics of the church. I’ve seen many many people leave.
I’ve heard people donating their house hold items to Edge so that the donated items could be given to the poor. Edge doesn’t hand them on, they sell the goods and pocket the money either for signage that costs thousands of dollars or for whatever reason, but it’s not for the poor. It’s all about money to Edge, money money money!!!!!!
I’ve seen it, i’ve witnessed it.
We must get real and do what God wants us to do and that’s live, love and look after people in need. It’s all about the people. It’s not about building a huge expensive flashy church/ministry, we can’t build the church God builds churches, we need to love and look after the poor in every way possible and let God build his church the way he wants it to be, not what money hungry wolves in sheeps clothing want.
The cars, the homes the whole Edge thing is so far from what God is, it’s sickening!
I pray and cry for the people out there who will be ruined because of MG and his filthy lies!
In response to ‘Shocked’ August 22, 2008 at 9:33 pm …
I too have attended Edge Church, and still do. Where did you get this information about “people donating their house hold items to Edge… [Edge] sells the goods and pocket the money either for signage that costs thousands of dollars or for whatever reason, but it’s not for the poor”? I have never witnessed such a thing and i have been there for 6 years. It’s not all about the money. I have never thought that in all the years i have sat in that church.
It is at Edge Church, not the other churches that i have gone to in the past, that has helped me to grow stronger in my christian faith more so than the other churches (not that i am criticising them in anyway – Edge just suits me well). I love the passion and the hunger that the leaders have for God. It is all about God and always will be. The focus this year in our church is about looking towards and serving Jesus.
Please hear this not as a defence, but as my interpretation and experience that i have had in this particular church.
As to Mike, i am totally shocked at the news that he faked it. I certainly did not see it coming. And yes, I do not understand how he faked it from his own family for so long. Perhaps it was the trust of his family in him that got in the way of it all. I am not sure. I have no idea how Mike slept at night.
Perhaps these answers will reveal themselves in the statement that will be released to churches on sun morning. I heard on channel 7 that there will be an interview with Mike himself on mon night next week on the todaytonight program or whatever it is called. I just hope the media has not doctored the program in anyway so we can really hear the truth.
Sunday will be a hard day for his family and Mike has a harder road ahead of him than the one he created and it’s going to put the true values of being a Christan to the test..The media says he spread a gospel of lies and deceit but the true word of God was spoken maybe brought out by a lie but still the word of God all the same..I don’t think anyone withing the church will be on vendetta against the his family or Mike himself. I choose to take this whole fiasco as test of our faith and what we preach everyday Truth forgiveness and love the truth has came out the 2 are what need to follow. I went up to Edge today and just the whole shock of it all could really be sensed.
And in reply to “shocked” You call yourself a man of God…..You sound as if you have the word of Satan coming out read up on your bible a bit more and read about forgiveness if the people he lied to and have hurt the most can forgive him then why are you trying to insight a rebellion against the AOG?? Remember Sydney this year the huge amounts of people that turned up for world youth day??? If what you say is what you honestly feel they should have been rioting due to the countless sinful acts of the Catholic church and yet they can forgive so should just think about what you have to say and think What would jesus do or say??? It’s for God to judge Mike not you..
It doesn’t make sense to focus on the reasons why Mike Guglielmucci lied? I pray he is indeed getting help, and the circumstances that led to the lie will surface, which in turn will lead to healing. Ironically, the focus needs to be on healing, which is the title of the song he wrote. It is important for Christians to recognize that this is another attempt, by the enemy, to keep deceiving non-believers and to discourage believer’s, and keep ahead of that.
Luke 10:19 tells us God has given us authority to trample snakes and scorpions and to destroy the enemy’s power. One of the best ways to do this is through prayer and obeying God’s guidance in how to demonstrate, through our own behavior and attitudes, that we will have victory over the enemy’s schemes. I pray this is the stand Planetshakers will take, thus creating awareness of our God given power and authority over the enemy, which again in turn, will promote healing.
~Andrea
while i can understand how those who looked up to mike may be deeply affected by this, i feel as though it is very unloving of us, as the church to say that this is mike’s own problem, nothing to do with the church.
we all make mistakes, i’m not saying this is nothing, but don’t you think he already knows how big it is?
people will talk, but people always have. it would be nice if we could stop worrying about how this will impact the way other people see us.
mike needs our prayers and support at the moment, on his journey to recovery.
also, it is a reminder to us, that even great leaders are only human, and so not perfect, and will let us down, it is only God who we can completely 100% depend on.
Just wondering,
the word “LEADER” how many times was it mentioned in the NEW (Jesus) TESTAMENT,
1-The KJV/NKJV/ASV/NIV I found NONE,
BUT in other translations I found a mention to the word leader couple of times and here it is:
-Mt 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
- Lu 22:26 “BUT IT IS NOT THIS WAY WITH YOU, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the SERVANT.
Well now we understand that Jesus did not come to recruit leaders….leadership maniacs, you wanna be a leader because off course you are TALENTED, FIND somewhere else to show off but not in the house of PRAYER.
BY the way, I here you asking, the word “SERVANT”, how many times was mentioned in “GRACE (NEW) TESTAMENT..you wouldn’t believe it!! Mr. “me me me I wanna be a leader in the church because I am talented”…..WHAT?!!
1- in KJV is 79 times
2- in NKJV is 80 times.
3- The American Standard Version 82times.
4- in NIV is 97 times
5- The Good News Translation 106 times!!!!!!
WATDDAA!!!! 2:106
Was that an accident?! well Jesus did not come to recruit “talented/awesome/handsome/gifted..etc LEADERS”
HE (Jesus)discipled his followers to SERVE SERVE SERVE
IN HUMILITY depending completely on their ONLY LEADER, JESUS THE SERVANT KING…..
STOP LEADING THIS LIFE STYLE BY SERVING AND ONLY SERVING…
A Saved sinner!
Sadly the Kingdom of God is brought into disrepute once again, making it an even more confusing and difficult journey for those seeking the one true God. As stated by others our church system is the beast. Power corrupts, maybe we need to take a really good look at the new testament church and what Jesus taught about leadership. Something about becoming the least, a servant, etc.
Freely you have recieved, FREELY GIVE!!
Enough of big church business, with its contoll and manipulation.
The CLERGY hold all the power and it is obviously damaging them as well as the sheep. There is a good shepherd – JESUS CHRIST. It would do us all well to stop continually supporting and promoting the destructive Clergy Laiety system and to each take up our calling in Christ, that is we are all a priesthood of believers, and to submit to one another out of love, not some crazy system that lets everybody down.
I came across this on my dashboard this morning.
What’s clear is this, we have work before us and we need to do that with the joy, peace, passion and grace that Jesus Christ has for us. We are the arms, legs and voice of the living God and we need to hug bigger, walk longer and proclaim louder the love of Christ so that things like this will be drowned by the flood of true Christendom.
Talk is cheap, let’s do it guys and girls. (=
1. I don’t think this will be on the average unbelieving Joe or Jane’s radar. 95% of them won’t even know this story a month from now nor care.
2. My reason #3,445,678 to keep your head in the trenches.
3. Much of this is fueled by our own Christian voyeurism and not any real concern about Mike, the Kingdom of God, or evangelism. It’s merely water cooler talk for churches.
Guys (and girls of course), let’s keep it clean please. Keep it life giving or take it somewhere else. I don’t mind a healthy discussion but there’s some serious crap flying around here. Please keep your comments honouring and uplifting or they will be deleted.
This blog does not exist for you to rip into leaders or churches that are doing a good thing.
@shocked – you’ve been warned. I understand you have a particular point of view but that isn’t to be shared in public. The Bible makes it clear that if you have a problem to take it to your leaders. Complaints happen upwards not sideways or downwards. That’s called gossip. Your comments have been modified or deleted.
@Elyse – I’m glad you’ve had a great experience at Edge Church. I’m sure there are thousands like you. Thanks for sharing.
@Matthew Beal – I agree. God is judge. Thanks for posting a response.
@Tim – thanks for a life giving and constructive response.
@jordan fowler – I totally agree. Our mission isn’t to gossip about it but to pray, to work against the tide of negativity that naturally arises in these situations and to help each other work through it in a healthy way.
I am so sorry about all this. I am one who deals with a cronic illness which puts me in and out of the hospital all the time. My faith is tested all the time. I listened to the song healer everyday for strength along with many other songs. Healer touched me as I would think of Mike and what he was going through and that helped me deal with my issues. It saddened me so much to hear of the deception and it is hard to listen to this beautiful song because my mind was always on what Mike was going through. It is unfortunate that he had to lie because the song still would ministerd to everyone without him having to have been supposedly sick. I do not know how his wife and family did not know as would they not have gone to doctor’s appointments as most spouses would? I always wondered why he was a heavy guy with cancer as they usually are very thin and frail especially as sick as he said he was.
My prayers go out to everyone that was affected and I pray Mike gets the help he needs to be able to come back and take the consequences of his actions.
I still love the song and know that it is God that I lean on and not man because we are humans and we all make mistakes and we all pay the price one way or another for those mistakes.
Debi Peri
Just want to appoligise if i’ve come across to harsh. I didn’t mean to be. I’m very hurt and angry at what MG has done. I’m not perfect and i’ve sinned bucket loads myself so i’m no better. I’m worried for the people. But God is in control, there could be a huge blessing coming out of this.
I will lay my hurt at the feet of God. I don’t want to give the devil a foot hold so i will continue to pray and ask God to help me thru this.
God bless all!
I went to the Hillsong conference and enjoyed it but now everytime I watch the DVD it will be a parody. Watching the “I believe” healing song and listening to his gasps is now hilarious in a strange way. The desparation is very real- this guy is desparate to be believe he is sick so he can be healed. Perhaps he should go back next year and get some prosperity teaching. I mean compared to hoping for bad things so you can be healed and even pretending they happened is not really going to take off on a large scale…
Below is a link that I saw on google. It seems that as early as 2006 this guy has been allegedly sick and healed. Which is clearly a sickness. Perhaps he could one day write a song about that. I am sure we will all buy it.
http://www.gush.com.au/showthread.php?t=7956
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 139
revolu7ion is offline
Old 16 Oct 2006, 05:05 PM
#8
when i heard he was sick, i laughed… not because i am happy he is sick, but because while he was at our church he was healed of:
Glandular Fever
Blood Clot in his brain
Brain Tumor
Burst Ear Drum
God is so going to get the glory for this one… just like the other ones. But keep praying!
Hi, I came across this in a bit of random Googling and have never posted here before but I’ve read the original post and responses with great interest. As someone who deceived my own family and church for many years (I was a sex addict and adulterer, as well as a Worship Leader and Elder), I can understand a little of how these things progress – ultimately, the fear of letting people down and the impact it might have on others’ faith becomes a very strong barrier to ‘fessing up, even when you have personally reached a point where you know you need to. On the other hand, how it actually started, how it entered Michael’s head to do this in the first place, is beyond me. I must disagree with Shocked: “So now Mick will pleed the ” im not well in the head act” No, he’s well, he’s a very intelligent man, he knows what he was doing.” No… a well, intelligent man would realise that there is no way this can be pulled off in the long term. Two years is amazing actually, but there are too many balls to juggle in a deception of this magnitude and an intelligent person, who was thinking clearly, would see that. There has to be some form of mental illness in my view.
It’s difficult to discern God’s plan in all of this, but it must be a doozy. So many people have been let down. In my own church, for example, just last Sunday, many of us saw the ‘Healer’ video for the first time and cried and were inspired by Mike’s battle and faith and the impact on those around him. In the very same week this comes out. I wonder if we should announce that to the church? – I doubt that many have actually caught up on the story. I live in a semi-rural community where Planet Shakers did a fair bit of outreach and Michael himself was a very strong influence in the lives of many young people. At the time, we were concerned and wished that they would have helped us to grow the Youth outreach in a local context, rather than draw our youth into the city, but we were happy at least that through their programs, there were kids finding Christ. Now, I’m not so sure.
I’ve always been inspired by the likes of Hillsong and Planet Shakers, at the powerful worship songs, at the drawing together of so many to glorify God in one place. But the world looks at the “falls” in these mega-churches and in the traditional large denominations (Catholics, Anglicans) and says “see, I told you they were all the same…” Comments to this story on the news.com.au website were full of the athiest evangelists, gleefully rubbing it in, and as always seems to be the case, the only pro-Christian posts that were published were from the more ‘exciteable’, less coherent Christians. I wonder if anyone else notices this? My own posts, in support of the Church, are almost never published. I fear there is a bit of social engineering going on.
Anyway, I’ve rambled a bit, but I guess my point is that maybe I’m becoming more satisfied with the fact that my own church could never quite embrace the ‘Purpose Driven Church’ and that we never get much past 60 ot 70 families. The higher you get, the further you fall, and the greater the fallout. Maybe the time of the mega-church is past. Maybe the model of the early church – small groups, in their own communities – is the one would should be striving for?
For myself, this does not shake my faith at all. Michael was a man, with all of a man’s failings. God has only sent one perfect messenger. “A bad tree cannot produce good fruit…” Has Michael produced good fruit? I think so; therefore he must not be bad, just not perfect. I’ll be praying for Him, for his family, for those who have been personally affected by this and for the Church.
We took our youth group to Melb just one month ago BECAUSE MG was speaking. He told us AGAIN how he wrote “healer” and talked (again) about His belief God would heal him…. some of our kids gave their hearts to Christ on the strength of his testimony – what does that do for them? to them? How do the ever trust again?
He was STILL lying then. The song healer was built on a lie and a very clear and deliberate deception. We have to admit the truth here guys…. we need to stop covering up for people who abuse innocent people -the Catholic church covered up for decades….making excuses for child abusers…. yes, we need to forgive and pray for MG his family AND the hundreds of thousands of young people whose hearts have been lied to…and pray that God will bring a great GOOD out of this mess, but let’s call it for what it is FRAUD, lies and deliberate deception over years….
It’s indeed a little heartbreaking and confusing when we find out that people who claim to treasure and adhere to the word of God (MG & TB) fail to live by what they profess. But that is what can happen when people are people. To blame the church or blame God for what people do is nonsense. Your sin or my sin does not change who God is nor does any man’s deception or fallen morals diminish the power of God’s word and the truth that it changes people’s lives. Jesus was sent into the desert where he was tempted directly by Satan himself. While Jesus succeeded in rejecting and overcoming the temptations, how would we fare up in his sandals? Well Satan has indeed come to many men and women of God over the years and some have simply not handled it like Jesus did. What you can do today is rather than judge harshly the sad events that have brought discredit to these prominent church representatives, be grateful that Satan has not come calling at your door to test how you would fare up under his attack. Please pray for the families and churches connected with these exposed men and pray that God be merciful to our fallen brothers.
The problem really comes from the fact that young people need someone to look up to. SO many kids are coming from broken homes and families- they need someone who they can inspire them to be strong people of God. It is just a shame one of the men we ALL thought would be a good example for them has let us down.
Hi Darren,
What does i matter if people are negative about this? I mean, even the “sin” of gossip pales in comparison with what MG has done here, so does it really matter if people vent a little? Let them be negative and angry and let them ask inportant questions about the bigger picture. Please dont shame them for thinking any way they want to or for being cynical or negative…in cases like this, that is a good thing…
I hope MG comes to his senses and he is not slapped on the wrist…maybe then he will come to true repentance? And why are so many calling this a sickness/mental illness? Give us a frigging break, lying is a heart problem. We all do it, MG just did it on a much bigger scale. Actually I admire him for his skill…props to him for that…once he is out of prison he could probably put that skill to great use…maybe get a job as a CIA spy or whatever the Aussie equivalent is. But on a serious note, this is not funny at all for all the people who are real cancer sufferers. What a slap in the face, when these poor people are suffering such indignity at the hands of this relentless disease, a man of the “cloth” comes along and pours burning coals on their heads. I couldnt care less about how hillsong or planetshakers or other churches will suffer, or even those who have given money…I care about the additional suffering that true cancer patients now have to deal with. So let up on the MG compassion people, and care a little about the “little” people, the real victims here, the cancer patients. Peace out!
There is a difference between forgiving someone and reconciling with them. The bible calls us to forgive, but sometimes the trust broken is so great that we can never find a place to reconcile with the person again. It’s ok to feel this way, because we are called to ’sin not’. This lesson is learned by all those who suffer abuse and have to forgive the perpetrator. But they don’t have to go back and live with them!
Secondly, I have heard a lot of people saying it must be ‘mental illness’. Most people with mental illness are upright and moral. They don’t commit fraudulent acts. The level of deception, which is breathtaking is calculated, planned and executed with full knowledge of what he is doing to everyone around him. As a mental health nurse let me tell you that the clinical diagnosis for Munchausen’s (faking an illness) specifically excludes ‘financial gain’, as a contributing diagnosing factor. Munchausen’s sufferers cause pain and injury to themselves, for no personal gain other than attention and the usual issues people with personality disorder’s display. Please don’t get confused. People with mental health issues don’t deserve to be included in this unfortunate betrayal.
Thirdly, we need to seriously understand that man is a sinful being. That’s why we need God. So to pass this off as mental illness, and to let him off the hook before there is full repentance and a full disclosure, is not doing him any favours, and above all else, for his own sake, I hope those helping him understand the power of a challenging and rigorous opportunity for him to come ‘totally clean’. This is the only hope for his full restoration. If such a lie has been perpetrated for two years, so can his confession. I hope it is full and frank, and that those helping him rightly check out all the stories and all the facts, and call him to total account.
cathy,
brilliant and eye opening post, thank you!
I heard about the MG issue only 2 days ago and arrived here while looking for information. (I must say, it did a double take when someone used the initils MG – I use my initials al the time and had a heart flip that someone was talking about me until it clicked…)
I must say that I loved “Man”’s comment. I am in the finishing stages of my first book which is abot to be published called “17 Irritating Law of Followship” – in which I pose the question of whether the church has focussed too much on Leadership and has taught little about what it means to be a follower – and wonder if Mike,as much as he has to deal with and face up to what he has done – is also a victim of our Christian Ghetto in which the Cult of Personality plays a huge role.
Imagine the pressure this kid would have been under growing up in the shadow of his Dad and all his mates who were, and sill are, key “heroes and stars” of our own little sub-culture. You wonder whether some of this pressure may have been key in what he has done. Not that this excuses, but does, perhaps, somewhat explain.
A non-Christian friend and fellow comedian who follows my career as a Christian comedian and speaker asked me if i would get any material out of this. My answer is no. Not for my comedy material anyway. But for my own life, where resisting the temptation to fall into seeking the sorts of results and position that the world encourages is a daily awarness,for my own life and growth there is material galore.
While I am not a lover of anything Hillsong (the whole ting makes me cry, but that’s another thread I am sure) my sincere prayer is that Mike becomes everything God has called him to be; and that we all take note that there, but for the grace of God, could go all of us.
It’s not just Michael Guglielmucci’s failure… it’s our failure too. We failed to put safeguards and accountability measures in place to prevent fraud, and we will have failed doubly if we fail to create an accountable culture now.
I am tired of hearing about stupid accountability, lets face its a load of rubish. When you understand the gospel the buck stops with The Father. The Father is resposible for his children. The Father is responsible for discipline. The Father is responsible for the Love. Jesus said i do nothing unless i hear Our Father. One of our biggest failings is not waiting for direction. Oh i cant wait lets build mega ministries, Oh i cant wait lets set up rulers and leaders to lead us. Oh i cant wait so i beleive a lie. Oh Oh we must do something, anything i cant stand waiting on the Father..It is time .
It is time to get rid of paid pastors and return to tent makers . Its time to get rid of titheing and start giving as the Lord leads to the one he directs. It is time to let go this unbiblical model of church structure and return to serving as the Lords Leads. It is time to trust the Lord and get rid of accountability. It is time those beleiving the lie to let it go and ask the Lord to show them truth. The truth will set you free. Oh you say i am wrong .Look in the new Testament and find clear simple scriptures backing tithing. Take away tithing and most institutions will have to shut doors. It is time It is Time.
Stop fighting and start praying!
Thats all we can really do to help anything!
These next couple of paragraphs are not really meant for perpetuating this web-conversation, but i guess on the chance that the “Subject” is reading this i have this to say:
Michael Guglielmucci if you are reading all of this, may God’s grace be with you in abundance my brother. Know that you are still loved by the one we call Saviour.
Mate, there are so many threads this could go down, so many people groups that are involved, and so much that we all have to learn. I was reading about samson the other day and then came accross this blog thing…i saw a correlation… It seems to me that it is not how Samson progressed (and fell) that was so impressive but how he ended, doing more of what he set out to do in the end. Who else can i point out for you…David (adultry and murder) and Gideon (casusing an Idolatrous stumbeling block), ah mate there are many known’s and unknown’s (all servents of God) who have screwed it up BIG time, but dealt with it. There are also many people who have screwed it up Big time and haven’t delt with it….and all I can say is, this is where the Fear of God becomes more real to me than ever…what a scary position to be in…I know which category i would want to be in.
You stuffed up and there is probably a lot of shame and heartache still to go, but go through it with humilty and finish with well. Bear the consequences. Dont let the fear of man push you away form the One who so deperatly want’s to get this sorted. Man sits in judgement all to quickly and there are prices to pay there too….
Mate, I know that there are more people groups involved in this that are hurt in ways i can’t even begin to imagine. What do we do? Jesus should be their reality right now in this time…just as much as yours. You will not be able to take back what you have done or redeem the circumstances, but God is bigger than you and God is bigger than them. He will reach them if they want to be reached. He wont let them be lost becuase of your sin. I KNOW my God is bigger than that. They will have to deal with a lot. But you know, maybe this is the biggest thing any of them will have to deal with in their lives and they will need to grow and be established through it. I live in a part of the world where democray is non-existant and people live out of rubbish bins (men, woman and children rife with Tuberculosis) and that is their challenge – to find Him in that….the point i am making is…people all have their circumstances to work through – imposed or chosen…God should be Lord of them all. If there is any doubt in that, then I question the conviciton of genuine faith in the first place….faith can be shaken and attacked but never overcome unless it be yielded…in the words of Pligrams progress “For a believer can never be overcome, unless he should yield himself, even unto death we would fair the better”.
I guess i really want to write is, MG: deal with the consequences, face the impending pain, rise to the shame of what has happened, but dont lose sight of the forgiveness of the Most High. Don’t let the enemy rob you anymore, you can get through this with Jesus, mate. Ans be assured that you still have one sister in Christ…regardelss of what you have done
As afformentioned, this wasnt really meant for anyone else, so other parties, if you agree or disagree there is really no point of voicing it with the intention of future discussion on my behalf. The truth of Christ is what sets the vitim and the opressor free. None of us can change that it is His Spoken Law.
Do we really need music to get us into the worship spirit?!since when God need our emotional worship enhancement drugs!
I wounder also “I say that with the utmost respect to the holy spirit”, but did the healed pastor also speak in tongues?! could that be unreal “fraud” too?! how can you speak(pray) in/by the “holy spirit” in the presence of deception, if we are/he is praying in tongues to edify self, what sort of spiritual edification is that??!!
Please WAKE UP AOG….
THE LORD IS NEAR
and most of what you offer is not for the spirit heart but only for the eye and EAR.
It’s much more than just to cheer,
but it is love after GOD’S fear.
Lots of emotions and tears, and deception year after year!
GOD HELP US the shepherd voice HEAR, AND to the truth ADHERE.
GLORY BE TO YOUR NAME ONLY from a loving heart and sincere!
a very embarrassed Christian!
Man this is not a critical question but rather a curios one – Don’t you think that “wake up AOG’ is a mass generalization? and what about the psalms and david’s harp in relation to Sauls peace…?
Seriously, just curious…..No digging i promise
I love you, Seriously….
Well…The AOG is the assembly of God not just the pentecostal churches…thats What I meant, or could have meant.
I love music, I play music, I listen to music to relax, or to get exited, also in the gym to get pumped up, also some music can make me sincerely cry…but if without music in churches I cant get into the worship spirit it is purely emotional worship…
King David he jumped and praised with instruments not feel the joy of the lord, or not to get into the mood, but because he did it out a heart filled with praise to his king…that was the difference…
I also hear you saying but ELIJAH, asked for a harpist to get into the “mood” to prophesy, well…in the OT unlike us in the NT they were not stamped with the holy spirit…but why we desperately need music to draw the presence of the Holy Spirit if it is already in us as true believer in the NT.
“(Eph 1:13 -In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise)”
Sometimes I think music in church is too loud in our souls that it hinders the holy spirit from doing his work in our spirits….
BEING APPROACH BY THE SUPERNATURAL, IS MUCH MORE REAL AND POWERFUL THAN AN EXPERIENCE BUILT ON EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION…..
THANK YOU
I really really hope you understood what I meant!
GOD Bless
Also quickly, David played on the HARP, not on DRUMS…..BIG BIG difference…..do not you think?!
ust wondering,
the word “LEADER” how many times was it mentioned in the NEW (Jesus) TESTAMENT,
1-The KJV/NKJV/ASV/NIV I found NONE,
BUT in other translations I found a mention to the word leader couple of times and here it is:
-Mt 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
- Lu 22:26 “BUT IT IS NOT THIS WAY WITH YOU, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the SERVANT.
Well now we understand that Jesus did not come to recruit leaders….leadership maniacs, you wanna be a leader because off course you are TALENTED, FIND somewhere else to show off but not in the house of PRAYER.
BY the way, I here you asking, the word “SERVANT”, how many times was mentioned in “GRACE (NEW) TESTAMENT..you wouldn’t believe it!! Mr. “me me me I wanna be a leader in the church because I am talented”…..WHAT?!!
1- in KJV is 79 times
2- in NKJV is 80 times.
3- The American Standard Version 82times.
4- in NIV is 97 times
5- The Good News Translation 106 times!!!!!!
WATDDAA!!!! 2:106
Was that an accident?! well Jesus did not come to recruit “talented/awesome/handsome/gifted..etc LEADERS”
HE (Jesus)discipled his followers to SERVE SERVE SERVE
IN HUMILITY depending completely on their ONLY LEADER, JESUS THE SERVANT KING…..
STOP LEADING THIS LIFE STYLE BY SERVING AND ONLY SERVING…
A Saved sinner!
I’m a single mother and i have a bone marrow disease, it’s serious and it will kill me if, well if God doesn’t heal me, or if my future bone marrow transplant doesn’t work.
I still work, but i’m tired, scared and alone in this. I fear for my young kids. Their father isn’t in their lives basically it’s just me. I struggle in ever way!
I have depression now because i’m scared and feel insecure.
The pressure i feel and the terror that washes over me overwhelms me and i have no family support. I’m alone in this situation. Yes, i have God, but i’m also human and i need people support and love. If only people loved and supported me like they do MG, it would be amazing!
My church ( Edge) would rather concentrate on MG then help me. I looked at MG and his so called illness and i had hope because God was healing him, but it’s a lie, now what? I don’t have that to hold on to anymore.
What about people like me totally alone, sick and spent? What about the people who truly are in need? What about the little people of the church, we are important too.
Please God do something, please save us and shows us the way!
To lay in bed of a night totally alone with this huge issue laying on me is so hard. I need God to really help me here, please pray for me!
After reading Pastor Danny’s statement today, I am more upset than ever. It is clear that this is a carefully edited letter fresh from a lawyer’s desk. It contains no apology, no taking personal responsibility for the fraud perpetrated, no admission of guilt for what he has done to people, and no mention of the pain to anyone else other than the family.
How disappointing. I am grieving afresh, because what is supposed to be a full account, and openness is clearly a clever worded statement so that Mike minimises the chance of legally making himself culpable.
It’s insulting to see this as an issue of sexuality, which is a private matter for him to overcome, as do many others. There is no correlation between sexual addiction and criminal activity.
And what about his poor wife? She has been thrown to the wolves by bringing sex which is the most intimate personal aspect of marriage into a public forum and it is a smokescreen for the real issue!!!
I am so disappointed, and how can Mike be restored, when this sort of debacle is a set up to lull us all into saying Poor Mike, he’s sick. I’m sorry these words are strong, but I am so upset – for him, and a lost opportunity for real restoration, and for his wife, and for us who are now expected to act like we have had a lobotomy! See nothing, hear nothing, so then you will do nothing.
We feel deeply for Mike and are grieving for his family, but this side stepping of the real issue is obviously not in Mikes best interest or of the many thousands of people who he has abused by his falsehoods.
I was a member of Southside for many years before moving overseas. I am incensed to say the least. How can Pastor Danny have the audacity to say that the church should be praying for MG and his family at this time? How about prayers for the victims of this deceit and fraud? all the kids who followed Mike and spent their cash on his cds? how about for all the people like Broken Heart who truly suffer cancer and yet werent given the attention and support of Mike because they are ‘mere followers’ in the church and not cult pop idols like Mike was in the church. Pastor Danny’s statement is PR spin – pure and simple. Devoid of responsibility and all about keeping the church masses coming and his business (thats what it is) viable. “Pornography led my son to lie about having cancer”. Give me a break. I am incensed.
Wow, where to begin? “Severe porn addiction that created debilitating affects on his body”. Is this a joke? Was he jumping off buildings after a porn watching session? Did he break his own bones with a hammer from guilt? Is it even sicker than that? I am not sure I want to know how this part works but can anyone say, “morbid fascination”? I predict that this is going to become a best selling book for MG with movie rights as well. The money he will make from this next chapter will pale compared to the last fraudulant one. And they will all say that it was the restorative, blessing of God. Regardless, I pray that he gives every cent to cancer research!!! To be honest I am not sure I can believe the “porn addiction” line anymore than the cancer one. I mean, don’t you think that it is a little covenient that the new “sickness” is one that cannot be proven….how ironic? If they had used “sex addiction” then there would have been “other women” that would have been dragged into it as well. It seems very obvious that bringing this porn issue up is nothing more than a smoke screen, a distraction. It is hard to say if it will work, but it I am sure their lawyers told them it was worth a shot. Church, we need to pray that EVERTHING will be exposed, I mean eerything, and everyone who was in on this. Only then can true healing and cleansing come to those who are involved.
Meanwhile, in the downtown hospitals of Australia, the real cancer suffers are losing their battles daily with this hideous disease and pass silently into eternity. Would have been nice to hear an apology for them in that letter that was read.
I have watched several family members die from this horrid disease and I can count on no fingers the amount of concern from the “Christian family”. I can also understand this young man to some degree. In order for someone to be loved by God, one must always succeed, no matter what. At least that is what is pounded into someones head from day one with in the Jesus industry. Some may wonder why he did not come forward. If there is an unpardonable sin in the evangelical church it is to have a need, any type of need for any reason unless it is connected to marketing.
I can also tell you there are a few of us who are in those hospitals and the sound of silence is deafening when we have the audacity to ask for help. I will admit to falling into sin when I was in ministry, I asked for help and leaned on my spiritual family. That is vile and I have repented of that sin.
Yes, i was there at Edge when Ps Danny read the statement. It made me cringe. To me it felt like it was an opportunity to plug is book, he mentioned he had just written a book.
It wasn’t heart felt, although i did hear Ps Danny has had the doctor to his house upto 3 times in a day and that he hasn’t been able to get out of bed.
Then there was the Womens and childrens plug, and a few more he mentioned.
No, i was disappointed…
MG will get untold fame out of this, he will become GOD like in the eyes of some people. This is so wrong!
Is this a marketing plug for Edge or what?
Well,
I believe the lord is exposing and will reveal everything in this hour, this is the beginning of the big SHAKE UP in the church. The lord disaplines those he loves.
Do we want to be a bride without spot and wrinkle? YES I say YES lord.
Years ago, I went to see what this PLANET SHAKERS is about, and almost threw up. What are we doing to the YOUTH as a church?
We bring our children out of the world just for them to get back in it? Sorry, church has to change!
My cry as an intersessor is GOD raise up TRUE MEN of GOD, that will watch for the wolfs.
It shows how asleep we are as a church.
WAKE UP AUSTRALIA
Hey ANAH,
What does your name stand for, “I AM”..
I hope something will change!
Michael G I cant speak for those whom suffer from that horrid disease but as one who watched cancer eat my sister alive and kill several other members of my family I have to say something. My sister had many faults one thing was so true about her, she always believed the best, no mater what so I say this. I forgive you, from the bottom of my heart I forgive you. I was so ticked off at you as I watched her waist away, and I could do nothing, she went into remission one time and left a message for me about how I did this and that for her and saved her life. I dont know I think I was a crappy brother. I tried but that does not matter.
Your a young man, and thank God you dont have Cancer. But you do have some issue. Again I was so angry with you so truly deeply mad. I prayed for years for my sister but she died, and the disease showed her no mercy what so ever.
I have written on some blogs and this weekend I just got so mad about it. I have watched so many of my students, as well as family dye of such horrid diseases. I have been in special education for many years and have watched well over 100 students die, most of them from horrible mind numbing diseases, broken bones when moved, skin brake down so you can see their hip bone, psychotic behavior to the point of trying to poke out their eyes with a fork. I could never understand this in the faith but Jesus is always Lord. I cant speak for my students, nor others but from me, I forgive you, from the bottom of my heart I forgive you. I beg God to grant you the peace you seek. With my walk with Christ I am so reminded of my own depravity, I have failed Jesus so many times.
So for what its worth, from one sinner to another, I forgive you.
Man – I am seeing your point of view (I assumed i saw it before – just clarifying as there are far too many generalizations made these days)…it is very hard when you are reading words on a screen and not seeing any sincerity or, that potentailly touchy word, emotion as to take bearing from.
I am in 100 % agreeance with you and your (hopefully one day worldspread) desire for sincerity in worship and coming before a Holy God… if it’s obvious in it’s simplicity to the likes of you and me (and many others), then i guess our Holy God’s very nature must require it. But do you think that some people dont get it? It may not be simple to them…it may not be obvious to them and it may not be so easy for them to desire…there is a whole lot of superficial service, yes. But there is a whole lot of God centered motivation too. I reakon this surface crap is something that life and challange will wear down…so maybe it’s a good thing to let them live and let God wear them dowm. undoubtedly there will be the ’superficial sector’
who will never change…which is sad and breaks your heart. On the flip side, growing up in an AOG and destesting every sign of propaganda and show for 26 years…is something i have learned to wade through (am still wading through). The music played during communion, the music played in the closing prayer, the music played to usher people in….ya ya there are still a few issues with me… 
but what does it come down to then?
I don;t know..yes wake up Church but wake up to what…how do you teach sincerity….it is going to have to be Him…and maybe a littel verticle coommunication from you and me too. ….
As a side..i am so excited to speak about God…i live in the Middle East at the moment and miss the opportunity to write, speak and contemplate his character…so thanks Man for your insight and dialogue…
Also, just quickly….I reckon Jesus played the drums (Tuble’)….heaps of people of the Middle Eastern / Jewish variety do …;) Man they go all night here….Get some boggy on …. maybe not during worship granted but during the praise … to get into or help celebrate in Joy ..is the motivation or expression any different…??
It was obvious he did not have cancer and that he was stirring up the crowd with his mind games and an emotional ploy.
The funny thing is it was all a ploy to try to get the kids to give money, and to excite the crowd to return the follow year. It is business and a sales method.
This is a simple way of persuading individuals but taken further into deceit.
I don’t believe he has mental illness, but it is a cover up for the scheme of untruthfulness and to increase their own personal gain. People around him must have known.
“So easy to point the finger. The guy is still sick only mentally. He needs our prayer not our condemnation.” – He is not mentally ill. Just a liar.
For you to pray for him, is for you to be a sheep. No wonder people get so fooled.
A crime is a crime.
Cover up. I hope planetshakers and their pastors all come forward.
Pray for truth should be the correct prayer.
hi., (I am youth wker w/ cert iv counseling)
THis is a great tool Called SID’s, to test where your at;
Secret
Illegitimate
Desires
Steps 1-4, each one opens doors, which open another!
1. Fear of exposure of your SID, or a reaction to someone else exposing your SID causes you to become offended, high anxiety, stress, guilt, conviction. (A good time to seek God and others’, help and forgiveness.)
2. A pattern of self comfort, where you feel that you must cover up your SID and or justify your actions with reasons for continuing the cover up so that pain in ones life can be escaped, ignored or might go away. (God’s love is not like our love, His ways not like ours., He is not domesticated w/ formula’s, magic or work overnight miracles, He works with a community and washes us with the Word of truth).
3. Unrestrained desire is given permission to continue and is excused. Increased comfort is required at a higher level or threshold, to be able to sustain over-riding ones pain, which compounds. Self harm, hidden habitual sin, self cutting, high risk patterns can begin to evidence themselves. (Personal accountability to family and friends, youth workers, counselors and pastors are all good options and we are never meant to walk alone).
4. The level of energy in, restraining oneself or in comforting oneself has become unbearable and permits a spirit in ones inner soul to give up trying or can become sick. Death may seem the only option or at least the need to comfort oneself to death. In a surreal fantasy world where we are self deceived, the level of habitual addiction becomes the controller. (Suicide can be more than physical… How many give up on relationships? God will always hold out His arms in forgiveness and gives tools and people to help in redemption. Knowing there is hope for a relationship that comes from outside of oneself, will bring renewal.)
Hey Jen,
I think it may be pretty clear that he has committed a crime, and the conseqences will come judicially as well as spiritually.
But i ask you, what is it that is supposed to seperate Christians from the world? If a memeber of another religion committed this ‘religios treason’ against their own religion, they would be either hung or shot (or worse) (Middle East, Russia), hidden away from sight (India or china)until dealt with, or accused with more dirty false or even true accusations that have been dug up by the paparazzi – while they swear that they knew it all along(Australia/America). So i ask you again, what is the Chrsitian called to do? I have a feeling it is along the lines of, let God judge and bring to the sinner to account by those in authority to do so and let those forigive who are in authority to do so – the latter would be the body/the bride/the reformed dirty sinner/me and hopefully you, mate.
I wrote a piece a few days ago about how disappointed I was after reading Pastor Danny’s statement because it contained no apology to the body of Christ, and didn’t admit to fraudulent behaviour. At the time I was very upset, but after watching Mike’s interview last night on TV, I feel a little safer. Mike apologised unconditionally, and a statement was made that Pastor Danny has written to the Police Commissioner to make a decision on any charges, and that all money would be properly accounted for, returned or donated to charity.
I do feel a little more confident that things will be dealt with properly. I have never doubted Pastor Danny’s knowledge (or lack of it) in this situation, as I have personally witnessed his great distress for 2 years. He has been physically incapacitated by the events.
I was afraid that minimisation would take place to ‘protect Mike’ and possibly to ‘protect the church’, although we have all seen the anger. In today’s society, we don’t want to be shielded. We want the truth so we can move on.
I feel much more confident now, that restoration for all concerned will be healthy, and thank the Lord that He does reign in people’s lives. I am now going to let my anger go with God’s help, and pray more ferverently for Mike, and for all concerned in his restoration, and for those who have been abused.
@hopeful – thanks so much for posting here your newfound hope in the situation. I didn’t see the TV interview but I’m deeply glad that what was said, was said! Thanks again. Let’s keep praying for the Gug family and Edge Church and Hillsong Church.
Darren – how about let’s keep praying for cancer victims and for the truth to be told. You are all brainwashed. People in the church including pastor danny are complicit in this cover up of a smkokescreen that is pornography issue.let this post up and prove you are not afraid of the truth.
@Wendy – thanks for your comment. I completely agree that we should keep praying for cancer victims and for the families of those who have lost loved ones to the disease. But does that need to be mentioned? Surely it’s a given! Even still, lets do it.
As for the truth of this situation I think it’s out. I can face it. Leaders are people who fail… sometimes monumentally. I certainly don’t deny the weight of what’s happened I’m simply trying to help people respond in a way that will help, not perpetuate the devastation.
It’s a sin issue here people. People sin. That’s it. We don’t excuse it but none of us is without it. All of us need the grace of God, the forgiveness of sin through the blood of Jesus Christ to cover us for it. Leaders are not exempt from sin yet some of us have clearly ‘worshipped’ leaders in the past and been destroyed when they haven’t lived up to our unreasonable expectations. I think one of the lessons we can learn here is to have mmuch more reasonable expectations of leaders. I’m not saying that we condone their sin… but that we realise that they are human. I’m a leader and I’m human. I hurt people too. I don’t mean to, I don’t intend to, but it happens sometimes.
The truth is that this is a terrible situation of massive consequence and we need to rally around each other and help each other deal with it. That’s what this thread is about… not hiding from the truth, dealing with it… properly and in a way that will bring growth, life and salvation for more people.
Hi hum,
I think it is just a cop out for the leaders of our church to say “Lets pray for him and his family”. When, in actuality, he shouldn’t be getting all this attention and support. There are honest Christian out there that honestly need prayer. Note – it is a cover up for what goes on at church relating to raising money.
In the sense of judging this situation, the corruption was already in existence and now it has been exposed. It should be cleaned up, and not redirected into a forgiveness sermon (childish). This is just ridiculous. I guess Christians are still immature as they buy into it.
I’m not being harsh.
I pray for growth and truth.
Hey Jen,
This is merely for disscussion purposes, so please dont be offended. I am a fan of face to face…but since that is not possible…
Point 1: Cop out
So what then Jen, damn him to hell?
Matthew 7, Matthew 18 15-17.. ‘Give him a chance to stop and repent
of it with witnesses and if not then excommunicate him’ ..this is the process endorsed by Jesus himself. So be very careful who you accuse and on what basis you accuse them, lest you incur the wrath of God yourself (said with upmost respect). It is YOUR job to do more than pray, you MUST forgive otherwise He will not forgive you – not my words. You dont actually have a choice if you choose to follow Christ. You may not like it but that what it is …you will need to deal with, as we all have. CHrist died for him, I didnt die for him neither did you. SO if he can forgive him…i think it is our duty to forgive him too.
Point 2: Honest Christians?
Please explain. There is no such thing according to the standards you seem to be defining. If sin makes you dishonest, then we are ALL dishonest. Unrepentant sin is the category that will make the difference. MG has repented, let God deal the consequences.
And by the way we all need prayer, even the non-believing.
Point 3: Childish?
Matthew 18: 2 … speaks for itslef
If it is so simple and childish, why is it so hard to DO? its easy to speak it – not so complicated there, so why is it hard in the doing? – maybe beacuse it is not so ‘childinsh’ in practice…it takes a bloomin lot more maturity and gusto to forigive and work through things, then to walk away or dismember a person due to offense… Foriveness is what we all want, yet it is the hardest thing to give out…. – not so easy Hey? Not so mindless, takes alot of decided thought and exhausting daily choice making…
Point 4: Immature Christians?
What level would satisfy the determinant of maturity…according to your standards? The measure I use as an immature, childish christain sheep…is Jesus….None of us are there yet…
Point 5: Pray for truth?
Isnt that what brought this all to the surface? TRUTH… I hope you keep praying and genuinely find it mate. I will pray for you tonight and i seriously hope…no pray that you and i experience truth to a level we never thought possible.
Point 1 Re: Sheep…Thank you for the compliment
Have you ever observed sheep? I have every morning at 7:00 am the Bedouin shepherd musters his flock from the top of the hill next to my appartment and shuffles them down to pasture.. Sheep and goats…
The two categories Jesus aptly seperates the WORLD into.
The Sheep. The sheep are quite comical as the trot all the way down the hill without raising their heads, they basically focus on the sheperd’s voice and the but of the other sheep in front. When it is time to stop and pasture, they eat together, shelter together and in the heat of the day (there is also a grazing ground outside my work) the muster head to head in a rugby huddle and conserve energy while keeping the temperateure down.
The Goats. The goats are somewhat different. The are independent and have to have rocks thrown at them by the shepherd. The hardly ever stick together but either run ahead or trail behind. In the heat of the day they sit solo on the hot ground with no other goats to protect them from the heat, so there they sit hot, panting and eating alone, waiting for a rock to be thrown at them from the sheperd when it is time to move. Once i was camping in the desert and observed some wayward goats stuck on a rock cleff. They werent even sticking togther then….
Both have to eventually head the voice of the shepherd. Both graze and follow the same path down the hill and have to navigate through the grazing grounds. The parellel is the sheep stick together, heat each other in winter and cool each other in summer. They lead each other to patches of grass and all at the same time are listening out for the shepherd. The goats are not so protected by the other goats.
So, to be a sheep is what Jesus requires…perhaps you should pick another animal to make your point….or maybe the sheep is exactly your animal…in that case you will need to talk to your maker about that…
So with that, i will say adue…and pray you recieve it in the right spirit….
Hummmmmm, Very Very Wise..
But since you are here, could you please give me an insight regarrding
“”Mt 18:6.. but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.””
If he inspired “millions” of young/old people.
I wonder how many ANTI CHRIST would rise because of what happened…
ALL churches what would you do(+4GIVENESS)to help for this not to happen again?!!?!
“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me’ “”JESUS THE CHRIST””
We all need forgiveness….
For god so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,
that whosoever believeth in him should “be prosperous,
and have the latest Jaguar/bigger house/ better wife/ better sex life/ more acceptance…etc”….
and should perish, but have Neverlasting life…
Shaun Free Sexteen..
Hi Hum,
Don’t get me wrong too, I’m only here for an honest discussion too. I have a bit of gust in my reply but all in good means.
Point 1: Cop out
I did not ask him to go to hell. I just want us not to rally around someone that has cheated us. In everyday situations, do we rally behind leaders and governments that are after wars and injustice? He is apart of the body of Christ, but does not play a big significance in my life, so why would I respond in prayer?
Point 2: Honest Christians.
Please don’t break this down to arguments/reproof. In this context he has lied to so many people. Yes, sin is sin, but we are not talking about righteousness here but about a lying pastor, who was allowed in a place of authority and influence. I can easily pray for him so it is not a case of forgiveness.
Point 3: Childish?
Childish in the sense, that everyone doesn’t have a sense of balance and discernment to judge a situation. “Lets pray for him”, “yes yes, that is the right thing to do (turn a blind eye)”. Funny thing is, everyone did that, and he deceived the body of Christ.
The Sheep – I do understand that analogy of sheep, I studied it. And that is great, I’m, all for that, and I do try my best to follow. But to be a Sheep (blind, dumb, and a mind without question, is foolish) – God wants people with remarkable judgment.
Hum, all your arguments and thoughts and responses are basic elementary teachings at church.
Every church member can do what you asked. It takes thought and understanding, to deal with it with strength and to seek change.
Immaturity
emc – Don’t give in to it. He was not mentally ill.
People closest to him would have know this.
Hey man, good to have you back
…WHile i have you here, Did you ready my earlier reply, for clarification purposes?…
I don’t know Man, let me write what i think i am reading…I’ll give it a go, Insight? That is the Holy Spirit’s job right?
… Matthew 18:6…well, have you ever caused anyone to stumble? I know i have…countless times…
Millions? No, “ONE” of these little ones? yes. What does that mean for me or many others for that matter? JEsus says ONE of these littel ones…so its not a matter of proportions (i.e. Millions ..that comes later about teachers having a greater level of responsibility..)
As a side, Jesus also said ” if any one of you cause one of these “those who believe in me” etc…” I question the core of faith sometimes, do these hurt/embarrassed people believe in Jesus or did they believe in MG? Totally rhetorical, as there will neve be an answer. Eitehr way people are effected by this on way or another. SO how is MG resposibile for these people? I dont know. But i know that he has the right to repent and be forgiven by God. The latter part of the scripture focuses on the responsibility of the individual to “Cut off” the offending apendage…pide, lust, covetousness…So are MG’s actions leading to a seed of bitterness in an individual (or whatever), in which case the bitterness is the issue not the external action of another…other wise we would all be victims of circimstance and rarely take responibility for our attitudes.
I ask you, is it right that someone should say… MG offended me, embarrased me, lied to me…Therefore i am justified in hating the AOG, dicommunicating the command to forgive, and never give money to the church again?
Again, i ask you is it right that someone shoudl say…MG offended me, so i have to forget everything he has done, and go on as if it never happened, not attempting to make sure this doesnt happen agian, not making any structural/accountability changes in the church, and i must apprear to the world as if has been covered up by the church and not practically dealt with?
Evidently, both are are negative. So what then? All i know is that MG was in a position of authority, he screwed up Big time, and it was public and embarrasing (i think – essentailly what it was to the majority people – rather than beign truly hurt). And if God judge him fit to have a millstone tied around his neck…then so be it…but if God shoudl judge for him to be forgiven in the eternal sense…then so be it..I would rahter not have my spiritual life jeopardized becuase i played judge – which incurs sever consequences of its own.
I know that doesnt give you a neat 3 point sermon (AOG lingo LOL) …. but its what i have at this point in time in my life…I woudl rather take the general view of the plan of redemption for a sinner than the specific doctrine of condemnation of sin…if i am wrong i welcome correction…:)
Why is the word “judge”, or, “to judge” have so many negative associations?
To judge is a good thing. People have good judgment while others have bad judgment. People have Godly judgment, and other have careless/or naive judgment.
Hey Jen,
No probs..just making sure
If we are not going to break it down in to arguments/reproof…then yeah, you are right my opionions are basic elementary teachings…It has taken a lot of schooling and life experiences and well articulated mental arguments to bring me back to the realization that the basics are life giving- when all the fluff of Knowledge is exhausted..there is the Spirit and truth….its not meant to be complicated in the talking, though if that is what you are after i am happy to oblige.
Jesus’ teaching were basic and he called his people back to basics. Its not about being grandiose, or using persuasive arguments (as Paul puts it), that verbally whip the church. Christ died for sinners, that they might accept the offer of redemption…. I would’nt change it one buit….What change are your hoping for? What do you see as dealing with it in strength?
You ‘can easily pray for him, so its not about forgiveness?’ okayyy so what happened to ‘he has no significance in my life so why would i respond in prayer?’ The very reason you dont know why you should be praying for him is the very reason why its so difficult….
Who said anything about promoting mindlesness? WHo said anything about getting off for the crime and turing a blind eye? So not sure where that is coming from. The consequences are inevitable….no diagreement there.
Ya,
And who will vote themselves in as Judge, You? Gudges were given that authirity, they didnt assume it…
sorry my spelling is terrible
We should be asking questions like: Why is some one who is so very screwed up a pastor? Was that position his true calling or a role that was ready for him to step into as a prominent pastors son? It is not uncommon in the pentecostal church circles for uncontested promotion of family members in churches. Obviously an unhealthy practice.
Where is the wisdom, discernment and accountability?
I have friends that council big leaders of big churches, who cannot go to their own for help as they would be expelled, seems like the church needs to have a good look at their protocols.
Why was the cancer lie swallowed when family and some people close to him were aware of a problem with hypochondria?
Following is an extract published recently: – In an exclusive interview with Adelaide’s Sunday Mail this week, Mr Guglielmucci also revealed:
HIS son has been suffering “mystery illnesses” since the age of 12.
DOCTORS gave his parents the option of admitting him to a psychiatric ward for assessment as a child over the ongoing “illnesses”, but they refused.
THE family’s “absolute shock” at discovering Michael was not terminally ill.-
Surely there would have been questions of the legitamacy of the cancer claim based on a history including: Multiple myelomas (sic) or kidney failure or 33 broken bones or leukemia or stomach cancer.
I find it amazing (unbelievable) that close family including his wife never attended a doctors appointment. When someone you love is critically ill, it is commonplace to ask questions of the doctors involved to get answers and to support the ill person, at least in my experience it is.
I sincerely hope we are now getting the truth and not further deception, there has been more than enough damage done already.
I love the Hmmm/Jen argument please keep arguing
as long as u 4ive each others…
Hmmmm, I love drums in worship as long as it’s not too loud, cause I would like to under the influence of the spirit, not the dums..
You sound a bit like ANAH, ru related?! What is (Tuble’)
is that a Hebrew word??!
I KNOW U KNOW I KNOW in judging others judging myself first….But Jen has a point….church authority should take an appropriate response to send the message to others…
as Jen Side, the problem is not the PORNO, the problem is the deception
and that is serious matter….
Every one now forgot about the first shock….the (healer story)
I think that Jen is not seeking judgment but justice.
not for the Porno but for the deception…thats all..
also, how can I believe, ask for, forgiveness from a God that I have already Preached his dishonesty! by faking his miracles…
How can I ask people to forgive me as God did….sorry…..which GOD?????
there is no God because as the God I preached is not real anyway…..
I heard a lovely saying today … we have a treasure in an earthen vessel. Yes Mike should have remembered that he was only an earthen vessel and that any treasure was not of his own making, but that of the glory of God, which at one time must have been precious to him.
The trouble is that the earthen vessel has to be broken for the treasure (or glory) to be revealed. It is a salient lesson for all of us.
I have gone from extreme anger, to blame, as above, and then to some bitterness, to now seeing that it will also destroy me. I have been a christian for 50 years and know that from time to time these things happen and in the middle of it all are those who do have integrity, honour and are God’s instruments in both cleaning up the broken pieces and restoring the sinful. I have every confidence as more facts have emerged about the steps being taken to put things right as far as possible (eg. SA Police are involved), that we can have faith in those who have chosen to value and honour that ‘treasure’ the presence of the Holy Spirit in their weak, and sinful body, to handle this terrible sin appropriately.
I forgot to add that Danny spoke to me over the past 2 years several times about the fact that he didn’t know what was going on because of distance (separated by states) and how hard he was finding being a parent who wanted to share the burden, and not interferring in his son’s marriage by hanging around. He also told me that Mike was very ‘private’ about his illness and wanted to handle it on his own. As a parent of adult children who are married, this is a reasonable request and parents take this responsibility to stay out of their children’s lives seriously, so to those of you who are questioning Danny’s integrity on this issue alone, I know first hand that you are dead wrong.
cool cool,
I am all for justice….obviosly. But the church authority is the one who has to deal with this correctly…Are you or I the church authority? Nope i am not! But we need to get behind that with the right spirit…like i said who said turning a blind eye or pretending it never happened is right? That is not what Jesus was about…at ALL …
Justice for who? it seems like there is a heavy judgement undertone…maybe an assumption…??
Meanwhile…
the tuble is what they call the hand held drum here in Jordan, ME. I think we agree on the fact that anything can drown out true worship…silence, noise, your own thoughts….
more later…
MAN!!! Mt 18:6
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.””
This is true. I have cancer of the bone marrow and i watched in anticipation the healing of MG, i hung onto his healings and had hope!
Good people of God die every day from terrible diseased and death. These beautiful people leave children and family members behind. I feel really scared! I love God and i want to be all he wants me to be, but i’m human, i feel human emotions.
I feel God is with me thru all this. I’m not sure what will happen, so all i can do is hang onto God and trust only him!
Hummmmmm, Very Very Wise..
But since you are here, could you please give me an insight regarrding
“”Mt 18:6.. but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.””
If he inspired “millions” of young/old people.
I wonder how many ANTI CHRIST would rise because of what happened…
ALL churches what would you do(+4GIVENESS)to help for this not to happen again?!!?!
“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me’ “”JESUS THE CHRIST””
We all need forgiveness….
Hi all, and especially hum and Man,
Hum, do you think elementary Christian chit chat and Christian sayings/taglines are going to restore and find truth in this situation? Do western governments use the mob and the commoner to be influence their government on national intelligence affairs? You place forward the common Christian response. It will not help with justice or truth. (note – I’m not a conspiracy theorist)
The root of the manner is deception. Lies have been common. We have all heard the simple persuasion tactics and other forms of propaganda: from fake testimonies that have been twisted for a fleshy response, to fear and condemnation. Half truths, and silly analogies that are too poetic and appeal to the emotions/senses. Are you after a fleshy church hum?
On an interesting topic and concerning the latest confessions. “Porn did it”. Blame it on porn? Madness? Or should it be the weakness of the man? Truth is not dogma but there are levels of truth. Truth grows and we come into greater revelation day by day about it. Jesus said “you shall know the truth, for it will set you free”. I wouldn’t believe MG confession. He is so far in a lie and has been exposed. It takes time for him to come back to an honest authenticity and a sense of truthful reality. It takes time and repentance and the healing of the soul. Porn. Very laughable. So bizarre. He should just think for a change. Others should help him and come forward too.
Another fall by all – Why, when everyone sung the song healer, they looked to the emotional experience of a supposedly sick man for their emotional response and great drama spectacle and not to the healer Himself, who deserves the glory? Blinded once again.
Too much now, talent is always lifted up at our churches over integrity and Christ-like strength.
Jen is spot on. The problem with these sort of churches is that when deceit happens their first reaction is “lets pray for the perpetrators” rather than “lets pray for the victims” or even more novel “lets not allow anyone to escape accountability – lets investigate and get to the bottom of this. No the first reaction is to pray for them. why? because they are the LEADERS of the church and therefore their percieved integrity must remain in order for the churches to survive and for them to continue making money. This pornography smokescreen sickens me. Questions need to be asked firstly and prayers for the perpetrators following this. Pastor Danny and Mike’s wife didnt know or suspect their son faked his cancer? give me a break. the reason christians like me cant move on is that the full truth hasnt been told. yes we are all sinners but they cannot expect forgiveness whilst they are still committing the sin. Open your eyes people, the lies are still going on.Pornography is a cop out devised by the PR machine of the AOG church to minimize the damage caused by this monumental lie.
It shall get more weird over time.
Hi Wendy.
On the ball.
Yes, the Pastors have a sincere role to play. Before God and not before their close friends. They have the respect of the church and are placed in places of esteem. It should not be a PR exercise. Selfish behavior I guess. Protecting self.
hummmm – basic
Hi guys, thanks for the comments but if this is going to become an AOG flame-a-thon then you can take your comments elsewhere. This blog doesn’t exist (as previously mentioned) to slam church leaders irrespective of what they’ve done. I’m sure you’ll find other like-minded blogs out there which you can gather around in your negative little groups and critisise stuff. Please keep it lifegiving or post elsewhere.
Hey Jen and Wendy,
Cheers for you input..
But guys seriously, have you guys actually read the Bible? And have you actually analyzed the current situation rahter than voicing you angst over to neative elements of church history?
Just curious, Jen as yet you havent actually presented the TRUTH of the situation yourself…There is a whole lot of ‘He is this and that’ and a whole lot of ‘i think this and that’….but you very rarely mention or refer to Jesus to back up your typical post modern arguments..You have Basic Post Mmodern i have Basic Jesus…. We have to take his word of repentance…any further than that and you are most certainly judging his heart, which i may remind you is sin itself.
Proverbs….Knoweldge should always be accompanied by wisdom… pretty, basic hey?
Re: the Basic business… Why are you trying to make it so complicated? Why are you throuwing out the “any church memeber can do that basics(even though they NOT all doing that)” …and replacing with more complication for the world and Chrsitains to deal with… ? What would your itching ears like to hear?
You know what is even more basic (and slightly scary) Jen, and Wendy, in this case? You continued tendancy for mass generalization. That is as basic as one can get really. Grouping the whole AOG into a neat little punishable box. That doesnt really take much brain power hey?
All in good faith…
Jen…
Love it!
Hey man…
Just commenting on
“How can I ask people to forgive me as God did….sorry…..which GOD????? There is no God because as the God I preached is not real anyway…..”
How then do you percive David, adultry and murder (over and extended perios of time not a weekend), who was a man after God’s own heart. Or the Christian boy or man who strugges with masterbation but loves the real Jesus nonetheless, or the woman or man who struggels with lying. How in the word can you or I begin to determine what his idea of God was during that time. Or how he was spiritually responding to the sin in the quite watches of the night?
Speculation doesnt equate the right to Judge. Porno – decception – whatever…what is the differnce? Now if he was unrepentant then the outcome is obvious…but he is repentant so…….the outcome is again obvious but painful.
No, he should not be reinstated in the capacity he was before. And yes he needs to got through all the legal and spiritual repercussions…And yes some churches need to rethink accountability policies. But then what?
Hmmmm, Regards to king Abdulla the King of Jordan, may God Forgive him…..
Also all churches have flaws..not just the Pentecostal.. as well as Me & U. BUT beloved Hmmmm, I think U R missing the point here…
- Unfortunately people in Authority or(influence) can not avoid the SEVERE consequences of their action…(lucky I am not a leader)
———————————————————————–
They need to be 4given but as in the story of David…
- THE SWORD never departed from his house, (Amnon, Abshalum)
- Porno (Lust) (Adultery) never left his house(Thamar, Abshalum )
“This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.”
Isn’t that very harsh from the God of all mercies..?!
BUT LISTEN TO THIS
“12:13
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. you r not going to die”
12:14
But because by doing this you have MADE THE ENEMIES OF THE LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die.”
I think if I were god at that time, I would’ve really forgave him…
- Israel was divided severely as a consequence of his action….(not simple)
and much much more….
Very sad isn’t it??? BUT it is the truth….
We R called to 4give the Porn Addict, as well as the deceivers, and ourselves as we can also be deceived by deceivers that the bible has warned about…..
————————————————————————–
SAMSON for example…you know what happened to Samson, when he disgraced his God’s Name…..he was severely humiliated….and the amount of humility that he brought to God’s name….
DU KNOW what the enemies said…”Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.”…….SHAME ON SHAMSON….
WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THE BIBLE IS THAT IT SAYS THE TRUTH ALL TRUTH..DOES NOT HIDE
But if we are a lie we will hide it….
—————————————————————–
thats what happened to real prophets of God, and if they are not from the first place, why would be any consequences….
——————————————————————
Jesus Asked us 2 4give everyone…But …in
John 2:12-22
14. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. (DID JESUS 4GAVE THEM?? I BET HE DID) 15. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
Where is the forgiveness of Jesus..the life giver and the sin forgiver????
16. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! HOW DARE YOU turn my Father’s house into a market…..
also Jesus said “WATCH OUT for FALSE prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but INWARDLY they are FEROCIOUS WOLVES.”
Even though he taught to forgive, but that did not stop him from telling us to watch out from the wolves….GRACE doesn’t null the truth…Never
————————————————————————
The problem is we preach an incomplete “false” gospel, teaches forgiveness priceless…which is not true, our forgiveness is way too expensive to be taken 4granted….
————————————————————————-
We do need to see the full truth of this matter come out, And I am sure it will…. eventually, meanwhile we do need to get on with the job of living out our walk with Jesus. I am sure He is not any where near as phased about things as we are, even though it is his bride being dragged through the dirt yet again. We should cry out for truth and expect integrity and accountability of leadership and examine ourselves. Jesus will build His church not career christians and marketing gurus. What is Jesus saying for each of us to do should be our priority of thinking.
!!!!!!WARNING!!!!WARNING!!!!!!!!WARNING!!!!
IT IS DISTURBING VERY DISTURBING……
Please Google “Todd Bentley” check it out…..and compare the charisma, cheer and deception with what happened here in Australia….
IT ASTONISHING….
how can that many be deceived….but I must say….MG was even much more believable!
I wrote something the other day on here about my cronic illness that I deal with everyday of my life. I am so disappointed with Mike but I am also glad my walk is with the Lord and not man. Man is not perfect and we make mistakes everyday. Some worse than others. I believe you always pay a price for your actions. You reap what you sow and Mike will pay the consequences one way or another.
Healer is still a powerful song which God still used him to write.. Yes, right now it is hard for me to hear that song and not think of the deception but eventually that will go and I will be able to listen to the words which give me strength.
A lot of people sound bitter but that is where we know that our walk is with God and not man. I learned a long time ago that I cannot always rely on man but I can on Jesus. If I did lean on man for everything, I would always be dissapointed. You have the good and the bad and unfortunatley even the leaders mess up.
This will be another lesson in life for everyone but it is not for us to Judge and run away, but it is a time to come closer to God.
We all mess up and some more than others but we still have to forgive and pray for them that do. Yes,…I would not trust Mike at this point and maybe never. He would have to prove himself for a long time but I still have to forgive and pray for him and pray he gets the help he needs.
It is not easy but it is something we have to do and I think that by forgiving it gives us more compassion and understanding of people. We grow stronger and learn from people and their mistakes. Not everyone is like Mike and there are more good than bad. I have to ask what made him do this and why? We are all dysfuntional and we strive to be better everyday. That is why my walk with Jesus is so important because I know the enemy is out there to kill and destroy. So lets not let him do that because of what Mike did. Lets stay strong and help those that are dealing with this and encourge them to keep their eyes on Jesus.
Debi
Wow! What a response! Such a horrible topic though.
I was really shocked to hear the news on this. Its really concerning and will have a lot of consequences for a lot of people, especially MG. It will be interesting to see what happens next in this bizzare situation.
Debi I struggle with a chronic illness which includes loss of sight, fine motor and things like walking sitting etc. I sort of wonder why Michael used an illness to seek help. My experience is that my fellow followers of Jesus find bringing up ones illness to be reprehensible and is treated with utter contempt. I have repented of asking for help, prayer, support, etc. I dont think I can be forgiven for that sin but God is good.
I just wanna support what Debbie said…We will have to forgive to show worthiness of the 4giveness we’ve been freely given!
God bless you! I guess 4giveness is a healing power made by the healer himself…for the bitter souls.
God is the judge if we really regard him as our God. Not MAN…and our compassion is to MG is not blinding but abundant and to his family the prayer for wisdom and strength should never cease.
Hey man..
Praise God for your use of scripture (truth)..
Total agreence (more thank you can proably ever know)….But I think you are missing the point (in repect)…. bacause i validate and and conceeded with you (the bible’s)’points’ when i accepted christ..
1. God institutes the laws of conseqence(not us),
2. We are called to be wise in dealing with this (shame on any of those who dont follow through on this with God’s wisdom)
3. It doesnt change the fact that David (and others) knew and were saved by the true GOD in the MIDST of their sinful acts…
4. Forgiveness cost the blood of christ…definately priceless – not something we should incorprate in unblalnced doctrine, nor something we should bottle up for another day… Balance…which takes wisdom..
5. God of all mercies…Harsh? even though i know you are being facetious, he is still the one who the whole world is accountable to (Romans 3: 19-20), and we have no excuse when we pass judgement Romans 2, ya a God of mercy and mutually inclusive a God of righteous judgement. It most cetainly makes my stomach turn when the gift of grace is likened to a weak, diluted, self-seeking, self-justifying, excuse for tolerance, doctrine. Arent the laws of judgement, conseqence mercy? Mercy that restores, corrects, disciplines and reminds us on our humble state…but my entire point is..the right to judge the heart is God’s, the right to redeem is God’s, the right to punish and discipline is God’s. Jesus’ comment to the woman “caught in not confessed to” adultery was go and sin no more….is this a weak and irresponsible statement. Where was the “do you know you will have to pay for this ….ther will be consequences etc.” Nothing, the conseqences are a given, we kow that. The point is go and sin no more. It is the church authority’s RESPONSIBILITY to follow through in the what the bible teaches as represntatives of Him and as witnesses to the world…There are specific guidlines to follow. Give them a chance to follow through. It is easy (and dangerous to ourswelves) to criticize the church – any church..like you said..lucky I am not a leader! What a responsibilty. I dont see the Bible advocate speaking against the church, in fact i see them having to respect and honour even in the presence of ‘not so godly conduct’, unless anointed to do so… Even david…i will not against God’s anointed…after saul forfeit the spirt of God…
6. Fianlly my brother… was there ever ONE time in my dialouge that i indicated or even contemplated that this slef imposed, man imposed or God imposed, man of influence should escape the SEVERE consequences of his sin? I am not sure where you get the idea that this is my stance? When did that ever become component of the truth of forgivness? To do so would be unmerciful and unglodly.
Re: Jesus in teh temple (stange example)…if any of the poeople in the temple (that he drove out) had asked for forgiveness it would have been theirs. Again, forgiveness doesnt nullify conseqences…it helps you work through them with the lense of enetenal freedom.
Re: the King..i’m pray’n
Your sister in Chirst..
My speclling is still terrible..i am sorry i am on my luch break and typing like crazy
Ha ha see!
Hi all,
I’ve been reading this thread with great interest and have had lots of reactions along the way, only to find that a little further down, someone has said what I was feeling in a more authoritative and eloquent way than I ever could. Just a few comments then:
“do you think elementary Christian chit chat and Christian sayings/taglines are going to restore and find truth in this situation?” The “elementary chit chat and tag lines” I’ve seen here come from the Word of God. How else should we, as Christians, make decisions in a case like this (or any other part of life, for that matter)? Yes, this stuff is thousands of years old and yes, we did learn it in Sunday School, but it is the Word of God! Until He writes the sequel I think I’ll stick with it as my standard for truth.
“Porn did it… Very laughable” Until you have been a porn/sex addict AND a Christian AND pushed into a high profile leadership role (as I believe MG would have been… how could he not become a preacher?); until you have been there yourself and felt the intense shame and internal conflict, the agony of knowing you are letting down your Heavenly Father and your loved ones, but not being able to break free and not being able to seek help, because of who you are and “how that would look”. Until you have been there, don’t presume to judge. I have experienced this and it came near to ruining my life and my marriage and it certainly damaged my church. It’s not trivial or laughable and you can’t just “turn it off”. In MG’s situation, because of his family profile, it would have been so much harder.
“We do need to see the full truth of this matter come out…” How do we know we haven’t already? From some of the comments I’ve seen here, we won’t be convinced that the truth has come out until what has “come out” accords with our pre-conceived idea of what must have happened. Does the Gift of Discernment work over the digital media? Maybe there’s a whole new set of e-Gifts we haven’t fully embraced yet.
Me, I’m just going to continue to pray for MG, his family, his Church and for those young Christians who have been badly affected by these revelations. If MG appears to get off scot-free (he won’t), then so be it. I’m called not to judge (1 Co 4:5), but I am called to love MG, despite his human frailty (Joh 13:34-35). It does sound trite doesn’t it? But it’s God’s Word.
Cheers, and thanks for all the great insights.
I agree With Debi, GOD BLESS U DEBI…
I guess 4giveness is a healing power, designed by the healer for the bitter souls..
We r never perfect so we can judge, no Man not Anyone but the God…judging is so far above us..
May our compassion him and his family, be not blinding but abundant..
May God be with you…
GRACE & TRUTH
(GRACE) without full truth turn into (GREASE), it loosens up our morals and responsibilities..
(TURTH) without Grace, kills, clean, but never revive or (SOOTHE)
ONLY when TRUTH & GRACE EMBRACE…. God will reward us GR+ Awe + TH .. (growth)
Thank You Father for the Cross
Amen to to likes of MikeH.. Thank you for being honest about it. I praise God for men like you..and thank God you are walking in the wisdom of haiving dealt with it in Him…. It is exactly what i was trying to get at… praise the Lord for His word of life and his surpassing grace.
To Him be the Glory for ever and ever, Amen.
This is to Idontgetit. God forgives every sin but one. That is blasphemy. That is you have known God and then denied him. You sound very depressed and feel you cannot be forgiven.
I have dealt with cronic illness and been close to death many times but I still lean on Jesus. Without him, I could never have made it. Yes it is hard to deal with but I am very careful in whom I talk about my illness with. Many people don’t understand it because they have not dealt with it and that is OK. So we find our support with special people that we know we can tell our feelings to and that can pray with us on a bad day etc., but it is something that I do not share with everyone. I have my husband and children that are always there with me and encourage me. But I make sure I do not burden them either and they only know the side affects of my illness but they do not know what it is like to live with it. I don’t expect them to understand but they are compassionate where as other’s may not be because they don’t understand.
You should never give up on praying or for asking for prayer. I have dealt with foster homes and illness and so much more but I still believe for my healing everyday and know that it will be done in his timing. Yes,..I do have my pity party’s some times but I do not stay there and make sure they are short and then I get back on course. I am only human and I can get down in the dumps when I am hurting or back in the hospital. I carry note cards with healing scriptures and just whatever to keep my spirits up even when I get bad news. Jesus said he would never leave us or forsake us and he went to the cross for you and me. He promised us our healing and said it was already done. I believe that and he would be a liar otherwise. God is not a liar and I believe we go though things to grow and learn. We are on this earth a short time and the prince of the earth rules here and he will try everything in his power to kill and destroy and it is up to us to fight back and be strong and make sure we are always in the word and praying and staying close to God.
I don’t know why Mike used sickness to seek help. We all do crazy things sometimes and he is no exception!
Be encouraged and stay on course as we are only here for a short time and let God use you to help others.
My prayers go out to you!!!!
Debi
Debi that was incredibly kind. I have learned in my evangelical life not to want, need, or even hope for kindness, like love and hope such emotionalism should be always repudiated. Logic, efficiency, effectiveness, success, those are the will of God, Always. I can relate to some of what you say, I raised a nephew for most of his life, another weakness on my part. But I like to think I had some use in that, another weakness, a Christian should not need anything. I strive in my Christian life not to need anyone, ever, no mater what. I have not attained that but can say I am much closer.
I wont give up on prayer, I dont think I would ask for it to much, the cost is just to high. As for Mr. Guglielmucci he will come out of this, he is part of the professional Christian group. They will always have help, as a non professional we are basically on our own. I can accept that, I have learned to have no expectations what so ever, just do what I am told, shut up and above all never be a burden, ever, no matter what. Again thank you, My response was my emotional aspect, the Truth is the Church is His body, and I know he will heal us all. It just hurts very bad and I was trying to give words to that for many whom I have talked to. God bless and be with you.
sorry i have to get this out: pastors and leaders are just like everyone else. they cannot be required to live “impeccable lives” any more than any other christian. if you call yourself a christian, you need to be doing your very best to please god, not man, and display his majesty and glory through the way you live; leader or not. im not saying this whole situation wasnt wrong; it was. but, for one: its been revealed that he is mentally ill, and has suffered from problems his whole life. and for two: being a christian doesnt make people perfect, its proof that we aren’t and that we realize we are flawed. i hate how people think leaders are supposed to be perfect, when most of the time those saying that arent even making an effort themselves. its time for christians to stop playing the blame game like the rest of the world and take responsibility for themselves and their actions.
and i agree about the discernment—there should have been someone to speak up there.
Firstly – all this proves is that Michael Guglielmucci is a human being. SHOCK! True, scale and publicity is bigger – but I bet most of the people on blogs around the world would not want THEIR biggest secret exposed for everyone to see!
Secondly – this event will instantly separate out all those shallow christians associated with Michael’s various ministries who tend to build their “faith” on personalities and not on Jesus. People will either leave or be forced to re-think the basis of their faith – either way, it’s a great “weeding out” event.
Lastly, my heart goes out to Michael, his parents and his family – let him who has no sin, cast the first stone!
I came across this blog while looking for information on this sad story. While I probably would seem like the last person in the world to comment on a religious subject (I do not belong to a church), I would like to say this has been the most straight forward and honest response I have seen to this story yet. Many of your readers seem to be wonderful honest people.
My own interest in this story comes from my background of having a mentally ill mother. My mother has attended church regularly for as long as I have known her, and she is obsessed with it. I really wish I could say I am just being judgemental, but unfortuantly my mother is a very ill woman. It has hurt me and my faith tremendously watching her behaviour over the years go unchallenged, and unhelped in her church family. Psychiatric help is frowned upon in her church, and rather her congregation actually reach out to her, they praise her. Many times dotors, family members have tried to seek help for her ocd, mania, depression, phobias, anxiety, and delusional behavior but as long as she has a church family that is willing to look past this self inflicted pains she causes, she refuses.
I am saddened for Michael and read that early on in his childhood it was sugested that he be instituionalized. I put no blame on his parents for I am sure they believed at the time it was unnessesary but this may have seemed so to them based on the people they are surrounded with. I fully believe while the majority of Christian churches fully have thier members best intersets at heart; when it comes to the area of mental illness they are still uncomfortable with dealing with it in a manner that would be effective.
I wait on a daily basis for the phone call that my mother has taken her life or hurt another because of her illness and it breaks my heart knowing that Michaels family got that call.
Bruce kindly wrote “Michael Guglielmucci is a human being.”
Yes that is an option for pastoral staff and other professional Christians, it never has and never will be tolerated nor an excuse for non professional Christians. I think that is the major difference.
I don’t quite grasp your point idontgetig…
Believe it or not all Christians are professional, just not all of us get paid for it or make a living out of ministry. The bible teaches that all believers are ambasadors for Christ.
All Christians can and will fail, as all are human. Even though they had experienced Jesus’ ministries first hand, both Peter and Judas denied him. Even the greatest prophets – like Elijah and Elisha – backslid and had crises of faith.
Every Christian is fallible and will fail at some stage.
Mt 18:6.. but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.””
If he inspired “millions” of young/old people.
I wonder how many ANTI CHRIST would rise as a res of a result of what happened…..
I do not think that Elijah and Elisha, (Peter at that stage)caused any to stumble….
Mikemby thank you for your kind response. In some ethereal non reality point of view you are correct. But in reality there is a huge difference between the Professional and non professional Christian. It is simple. If I did what MG did I would have been cast out, sued turned over to the police and physically threatened. He “fell” in this area and he was forgiven, got support, and people prayed for him. That would not, no could not happen if he was not a public figure. He would have been completely trashed family and all.
And it happens, all the time. That may well be true for the OT prophets but in the modern Jesus industry one best never no matter what ever show weakness, need, grief fill in the blank. This will get you booted, and it will. True Christians cant ever fail, no matter what.
Do I believe this, no, is this the reality of the Christian church, as sure as gravity, actually more sure.
@idontgetit – Thanks for your ongoing comments. I think, then, that what you’ve pointed out should be the case in every regard. Reality is that Christians make mistakes, sometimes colossal ones such as in this prime example. What SHOULD happen is that the person should be forgiven, prayed for and supported. It’s this example that might give us insight into the broader health of the body of Christ.
Hi Darren
On such a public forum, should you be advocating restraint or censorship towards the contributors such as “Shocked” and asking that this site not be used to flame the AOG.
As a Sunrise graduate, 1974, under Leo Harris and Barry Chant, I believe one of the most important lessons was accountability to God, the oversight, congregation and the wider public (non believers).
Here is a case where people were deceived and the ramifications on the church are enormous therefore the scutiny of outsiders is what will make a church conform to the teachings of the Bible.
Over the years many teachers, pastors and evengelists have taught me, sadly some of those have left their partners for others or used their position to sexually exploit others.
When I attended Paradise years ago, there seemed to be a trend towards entertaining rather than teaching, new concepts were presented and I was rebuked for using the term ‘flavour of the month’.
Sound and robust discussion on the Bible and the conduct of the local church should not be silenced, this is where misconduct and misapproppriation is revealed.
Asking people to keep concerns within the local church is correct, but sometimes the Oversight is wrong, misled or covering up.
We trust our pastors and leaders, and this is were we are vunerable.
Thanks
Martin
@Martin – thanks for the comments. Let me be real and frank for a minute. This isn’t a public forum where anyone can say what they want. There are plenty of other places where people can make their opinion known but this isn’t one of them. This is my blog and I’d prefer to keep it honouring and life-giving. My preference, my blog. Feel free to flame me on other people’s blogs if that’s your style.
The church’s history (whatever denomination you like) is not perfect but that’s because people are involved. Yes we do become vulnerable when we submit to leaders but that’s what we’re called to do…. alongside praying for them regularly, honouring them, obeying them etc. However, positioning ourselves to be led we come under cover and have the opportunity of growth and maturity that we don’t if we’re not being led and stretched.
I totally agree that we’re vulnerable. We need to let ourselves be led into new and better places while learning how to deal with offense and hurt properly. It’s a reality that leaders hurt people. We don’t mean to, but we do. Those who can’t deal with offense properly will stay immature and likely outside the will of God. John Bevere’s The Bait of Satan is excellent at helping believers learn how to deal properly with offense and hurt.
Thanks again… I hope I haven’t offended you or anyone else!
@Martin – Fantastic commentary.
While I’m saddened at some of your experiences, I echo the sentiments behind your comments re:
“…I believe one of the most important lessons was accountability to God, the oversight, congregation and the wider public (non believers).
Here is a case where people were deceived and the ramifications on the church are enormous therefore the scrutiny of outsiders is what will make a church conform to the teachings of the Bible.”
@Darren – I agree that “The Bait of Satan” has some good principles, but to be honest I found it weak in some areas – and some of John Bevere’s teachings have been criticised as being “unbiblical” (not my words).
His teachings on christians subjecting themselves to the church’s will unquestioningly, the rapture not being “real”, use of “covering theology” which is not covered in any detail in the New Testiment (in fact, told His disciples NOT to serve His body as ‘authorities’ who were over them, bearing titles and having men address them as such [Luke 22:25-27; Matthew 23:8-12], Jesus’ own directive to His disciples was, if you want to be great, serve! Lay your life down! Wash feet!) have been widely researched and criticised in particular.
Where “The Bait of Satan” falls down is in the assumption that if we pray it and claim it, God will act and do it – that if we give our hurts to God with sincerity, we will have them taken away almost immediately.
Unfortunately, God never promises this to us – so what are we to do if God doesn’t act specifically in our situation?
I believe most people will overcome hurt much more effectively with several sessions of cognitive behavioral therapy by a skilled practitioner than they will through reading the book.
That’s not to say “Don’t trust God” – rather, “Don’t try and bend him to your beckon call”. He’s God, we’re not.
I endorse everything by John Bevere. I’ve found it to be very biblical and liberating. It kinda depends on your translation of the Bible. Read Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell for more on understanding your ‘take’ on the Bible. Everyone has one. We often resonate with people, ministries and ministers that also share our take on the Bible. Unfortunately it means we can consider people who don’t have our take as being unbiblical or even anti-biblical. I’m not saying that everyone’s take is ok. You can take the Bible way out of context in a zillion different ways. But there are more than 1 or 2 ways to look at it. Rob Bells book is an eye opener. I love it.
Dear Daren,
You are such a good communicator, God bless you mate!
I just like to say that I love John Bevere..especially the teaching about “the fear of God” it is much needed in the west may God bless him abundantly..but if you please allow me to support what Mr.Planet shakers Insider said, in that some of the teaching is a bit “unbiblical” or I should say “half biblical”, but overall he is such an asset to the Pentecostals!
What I find that he concentrate on believers submitting to (church) leadership which is great, especially in a very democratic society like the western society where it is natural and normal to disrespect your leader as a part of your democratic freedom, unlike for example some of the middle eastern country where “honor” and “respect” to leaders and elders are a religion or a must.
but he hardly mentions the much greater responsibility on the Church leaders (SERVANTS), which I think it gives a green light or unlawful rights to self proclaimed (anointed) (Guided) “church leaders”, so they can do whatever as they backed by the “law of honor”
PS. WE ARE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT NOT IN KING DAVIDS ERA!
Also was apostle Paul under the covering of any church, may be, but think he had few arguments with church leaders (Peter) that were older and more experienced in believers views at that time than himself, and he did not submit, and he was absolutely right.
By doing that he was not under covering according to JB. Though he still lived, he did not end up with a brain tumour, actually God did not punish him but he became the greatest apostle in the new testament, all that “without a cover”..Galatians 2:11-21—-Acts 15:6-21
I humbly think that most of the churches that put so much emphasis on leadership not servant hood, “JB undercover policy”, are living more in the old testament era, the era of human kingdom, the era of concubines, the era of more than one wife, the era of submission to the leader of the kingdom, may be th question to be asked is “is the church that I am going to a real kingdom of God, or a charismatic movement that attract people by music an drama of a miraculously healed caner!!” ?
Thank you for your patience, God Bless.
Brian Houston has penned a response here:
http://www.leadershipministries.com.au/pages/default.asp?pid=2486
Worth having a look at indeed. Go on.
Mmm. Let’s look to Christ not man.
i heard about this story a few weeks ago, but reasearched it for the first time tonight, evenutally coming across this blog.
at my first read of the posts, i became concerned w/ ppls response to the MG situation. particularly because of what the Bible has to say about forgiveness, judgement, prayer, and other topics of the like in dealing w/ this intense ordeal.
i was refreshed however, the further i read, in seeing the standard of Truth for all our lives [that is the Word of God] shine it’s light as it always does.
in particular through hummm, and MikeH. sound wisdom, friends.
and Darren, you’re handling this blog awesomely
it brings me joy to see brothers and sisters COMMINUCATE during situations like these!
may we always strive to be the united body under the head of Christ, rooted and grounded in the truth of His Word, drawing others to this great love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness he has so freely poured out upon us.
im just a new believer…I really dont understand what is happening here but one thing for sure….there is only one lawgiver right?!…its not about the people…its all about God…dont focus on the people or else you may be stumble or you’ll be discouraged..just focus on God…
Hi, after reading Pastor Michael’s story I was deeply touched and I pray that he be healer. God is a Healer! and the I belive his whole family especially his lovely wife will be restored as well. I love the powerful song he wrote, unfortunately I can’t get a copy anywhere? I would like to buy one pleas let me know where I could get this.
has anyone thought he may need some alcohol addiction intervention ? But seriously, if he needs to appear strong and christ like, let him. He has a duty to lead the church.
In response to Lea I have to say I don’t think the Apostles lied for years and deceived everyone, OH that’s right there was one “judas”.
Please just get real, this is wrong on so many levels. But I have to agree with the commenets Michael may be a result of a system, that’s not working…..perhaps
Michael is just so human, he is beyond that, he is, to put it nicely “unwell”. enough inverted commas
Pray for him, pray for that church, pray for God to heal that poor family and that church.
Pray that every believer has a conscience about their own stuff and get help
Im sorry if I sounded a bit harsh about Michael. Yes Judas betrayed Jesus but now if we fall or sin we can be forgiven and helped. Judas became very sad after that but didn’t realise he could be redeemed.
We have forgiveness if we repent and mean it. We have the freedom to face our weaknesses, tell God about them and be healed. I think just some people need sound advice and counselling too, something that may have been lacking for Michael in his world.
I was as shocked as anyone else but this cancer wasnt a cancer in the body but in the soul. It took over him and cought up and though we may prosecute his songs for being a hypocritical, they dont lose their meaning. It doesnt matter who made it or sang it cause it provided an amazing message. God bless
I’ve studyed this sort of thing in high school. I’m not a hillsong believer but I do have respect for all religions and through my experiance, I can see that Micheal must have been in such pain in order for him to commit such a herendous crime.
I know that when you are hiding such a secret that you know will land you in so much greif, your mind will go into overload and therefore you can end up doing or even become someone that is not normally you. So I thought I would write in to say that even though I’m shocked. I do feel sorry for him. I mean, he kept his addiction for so long that it just completly took over him.
So I don’t know if Micheal is till preaching but if he was I’d give him my full support…cause I know what he must be going through